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  • Politics, Money & Finance

    Rather than start a boatload of topics to discuss these topics I have started a thread where all interested parties can discuss and learn from each other.

    Below is an interesting article from yesterdays paper which pretty much sums up my feelings on government's attempts around the world to stimulate us out of the economic mess.

    Keynesian policies are not the answer

    John Montgomery | January 28, 2009

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...6-7583,00.html
    Article from: The Australian
    "WHEN you are in a hole, stop digging." This sensible law was coined by Denis Healey, Britain's chancellor of the exchequer during the 1970s. Unfortunately, Healey did not take his own advice. Under his stewardship government finances collapsed, leading to the humiliating need to borrow from the International Monetary Fund. Within a year, Margaret Thatcher was in Downing Street. She revived Britain's fortunes by returning to sound money, cutting government spending, cutting taxes and allowing failing industries to go to the wall.

    This is the exact opposite to the economic policy being followed in the US by Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats, by Gordon Brown in Britain, and by Kevin Rudd here in Australia. Instead of sound money, the policy is one of throwing good money after bad.

    The new policy of demand management through government spending - known as Keynesianism - will not work. It never has, for the simple reason that governments cannot run economies and they do not create wealth. By throwing government money around in any number of bail-outs, infrastructure programs and pet social projects, governments are running up debt and simultaneously failing to revive the economy.

    Take, for example, the case made for infrastructure investment or public capital spending. The Keynesian argument is that this pumps money into the economy and helps fuel recovery and growth. This, the Left argues, was behind the success of Roosevelt's New Deal in the 1930s. But the New Deal was not a success: the recession was deep and lasted 10 years. It was the tooling up for World War II that ended the Great Depression, and the return of growth in the private sector. The New Deal actually made things worse because it delayed the recovery in the private sector. Similar policies were followed under national socialism in Germany: the building of autobahns, canals, dams, railways, airports, organic farming around the cities. Money was also pumped into the car industry.

    Of course, there were infrastructure projects carried out at this time, no doubt many of them a good thing, including the Hoover Dam and the Tennessee Valley water project in the US. But they had little effect on reflating the economy in any immediate sense or even over a period of 10 years. The reason for this is that of funds committed to any project, only about 10 per cent is spent in the early years of planning and engineering. Moreover, most of what is spent goes on materials and land rather than on the payroll. From about year three of any project, at best 35 per cent of spending will feed into the economy in the form of wages and salaries. So capital projects take a long time to get up and running, and their economic impact is less than 35 per cent of total spending. By the time a large project is completed, the recovery in the economy should already be well under way. That is, if there is a recovery.

    The most worrying thing about Keynesianism is that governments raise the money they spend from borrowing, issuing new bonds and, eventually, printing money. Printing money is a sure-fire recipe for inflation: real inflation, not the modest 3per cent of 2008 that was occasioned simply by movements in prices and the cost of oil. Real inflation is where your currency loses value because there are too many notes in circulation. The National Socialists introduced Mefo bills for this very purpose. In the US, Roosevelt introduced Swopism, a kind of corporate economy, based on the idea of nation-building and national unity, where big business and government effectively undermined free market competition.

    Solving one problem will likely cause another, in this present case the return of inflation from about 2012. To deal with this, monetary policy will again be tightened, and by about 2016 there will be another mild recession. The pattern of boom and bust will continue, made worse not better by central intervention.

    Cutting taxes and interest rates is a more straightforward and more immediate policy mechanism in normal times. Of course, the banking collapse made the recession we were already heading into - thanks to the interest rate hikes of 2006-2008 - much worse. Now the problem is a lack of liquidity as banks refuse to lend to each other. The reason they are so reluctant is that no one knows where all the bad debt from the US sub-prime mortgage fiasco is. So while the various banking bailouts have bought time and prevented a sudden run on the banks, they have not solved the basic problem of bad debt. In my view, it is now time to let a few banks go under in order to flush out the poison. After all, giving taxpayers' money to the banks to sit tight and not lend to anyone is in no one's interest.

    My proposal then is to cut the government bank deposit guarantee to a sensible level - say $100,000 - and advise people to spread their savings among a number of accounts to that limit. At the same time, governments should freeze any loans they have made to the banks. The more money is moved around, the less control the banks will have and those that have the worst debts will fail.

    Having thus cleaned out the stables, policy can then stimulate the private sector by a combination of low interest rates and tax cuts. Economic recovery will then follow, without the need for governments to hawk all our futures. This is because the fundamentals of economic life are still strong: new markets, new technologies, new demographics, new centres of wealth and new consumers. This is not rocket science. Capitalism will recover, but only when governments get out of the way and stop spreading doom and panic. I just hope Obama gets it before it is too late.

    John Montgomery is a writer and consultant on economic development and urban growth. His latest book, The New Wealth of Cities, is published by Ashgate (2007).

  • #2
    $42bn package to head off recession
    Christian Kerr | February 03, 2009
    Article from: The Australian

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...53-643,00.html
    TREASURER Wayne Swan has unveiled a $42 billion Nation Building and Jobs Plan to cushion the effects of the global economic crisis ahead of a major cut in interest rates expected later this afternoon.

    Dire: "The global commodity boom has come to an end," Kevin Rudd said in a joint statement with federal Treasurer Wayne Swan this afternoon. Picture: Gary Ramage
    The plan forms a double-pronged, electorally friendly strategy designed to shore up employment in the short term and complement long-term infrastructure development.

    But the package cannot prevent a more than $40 billion turnaround in the budget, with a budget deficit of $22.5 billion forecast for this financial year.

    Unemployment will also climb from the 4.3 forecast in the budget last year to 5.5 per cent by June this year.

    The Government says the initiatives in the package will boost economic growth by around 0.5 per cent of Gross Domestic Product this financial year and between 0.75 and 1 per cent in 2009-10.

    “Without this significant and timely policy stimulus, Australia would face a more severe slowdown than forecast,” the Government says.

    MAIN POINTS
    The federal government's $42 billion Nation Building and Jobs plan is aimed at stimulating the economy and supporting up to 90,000 jobs during the next two years.
    It includes:
    $14.7 billion to be invested in school infrastructure and maintenance and bringing forward funding for trade training centres;
    $6.6 billion to increase the national stock of public and community housing by about 20,000 new homes;
    $3.9 billion to provide free insulation to 2.7 million homes and solar hot water rebates;
    $890 million to fix regional roads and blackspots, to install railway boom gates and for regional and local government infrastructure;
    $2.7 billion small and general business tax break to provide deductions for some equipment purchases before the end of June 2009;
    $12.7 billion for immediate one-off payments to working Australians, families with school-age children, farmers, single income families and for those undergoing training.

    It estimates the plan will support up to 90,000 jobs over the next two years.

    But predictions for employment remain gloomy, with joblessness forecast to rise to seven per cent by June 2010.

    “The global commodity boom, which has provided significant stimulus to the Australian economy over recent years, has come to an end,” the Prime Minister and Treasurer said in a statement.

    “No country will escape the impact of the global recession which is causing falls in growth, job losses and budget deficits right across the world.

    “The weight of the global recession is now bearing down on the Australian economy. Economic growth is slowing and employment will weaken.”

    The Government says its response will strike the right balance between supporting growth and jobs now and deliver lasting investments needed to strengthen the economy into the future.

    For every dollar spent providing immediate stimulus to the economy now, the Government says it has invested more than two on long-term investments to generate future growth.

    As part of its long-term measures, the Government will build or upgrade libraries and halls in every primary school, special school and Kindergarten to Year 12 school across Australia. It will build 500 new science laboratories and language learning centres in schools that can demonstrate need and provide up to $200,000 to every Australian school for maintenance and renewal of school buildings.

    The Government will install ceiling installation free of charge in 2.7 million households.

    It will build 20,000 new social housing dwellings, fund maintenance to around 2500 vacant social houses and construct 802 new Defence Houses around Australia.

    Small business and other general businesses buying eligible assets will benefit from a 30 cent in the dollar investment tax break.

    The Government will spend $890 million to fund 350 additional projects under the Black Spot road safety program and the installation of around 200 new boom gates at high risk level crossings, as well as local community infrastructure and maintenance on Australia’s national highway.

    The Government hopes a series of five targeted bonuses for low and middle income households will provide an immediate stimulus to the economy and jobs.

    The payments are a Tax Bonus for Working Australians of up to $950 for every eligible worker earning $100,000 or less that will support up to 8.7 million people, a $950 Single Income Family Bonus to support 1.5 million families with one main income earner and a $950 Farmers Hardship Bonus for around 21500 drought affected farmers and farm dependent small business owners receiving exceptional circumstances related income support.

    Some 2.8 million children will benefit from a $950 Back to School Bonus, while a Training and Learning Bonus will be paid to students and people outside the workforce returning to study to help with the costs of education and training.

    The Government says the plan will build on the stimulus measures already in place to support economic activity and jobs.

    “The global recession, dramatic slowing in China and unwinding of the commodity boom has now wiped a total of $115 billion from budget revenues and pushed the budget into deficit,” the Prime Minister and Treasurer said.

    A budget deficit of $22.5 billion, or 1.9 per cent of GDP, is now forecast for this financial year.

    Yet the government says this compares favourably to the seven per cent average for advanced economies forecast by the GDP.

    The government says it is taking action to return to surplus by holding real spending growth to two per cent a year and banking any increase in tax receipts associated with the economic recovery, while maintaining its commitment to keep tax as a share of the economy on average below the level it inherited.

    But it is also leaving all options open for further action.

    “The government will continue to monitor the economy closely and is committed to taking further steps to support growth and jobs if required,” the statement says.


    Well well well the so called Economic Conservative really is an Economic Vandal. Not reported in this article or in the SMH is fact that they have projected in total about $110 billion deficit over the next 4 financial years.

    $22.5 billion this year
    34.5 billion in the 09/10
    cannot remember what it was in 10/11 its was twenty something
    and $25 billion in 11/12

    What happened to the temporary deficit that Mr Swan had been talking about in recent days. There is nothing temporary about 4 whopping budget deficits the likes this country has never seen before. It took the last Labor Government 13 years to build up $96 Billion debt. Which in turn took a Coalition Government 10 years to pay back plus interest.

    Rudd and his cronies have nfi and will lead this country into a depression if they are not careful.

    Comment


    • #3
      You would have had more replies than one, if the topic heading read something more like

      CONES, BOOZE & NAKED CHICKS

      Comment


      • #4
        Give me my $950.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Holmes View Post
          You would have had more replies than one, if the topic heading read something more like

          CONES, BOOZE & NAKED CHICKS
          That farking cracked me up.



          The FlogPen .

          You know it makes sense.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Holmes View Post
            You would have had more replies than one, if the topic heading read something more like

            CONES, BOOZE & NAKED CHICKS
            Your right I'll keep that in mind


            Actually is there anyway too edit the heading


            MMMuuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lauren View Post
              Give me my $950.
              Lauren you do realise that you will have to pay it back plus interest in the future. Probably when the Coalition get back in government. The government have projected will have a whopping $111 billion deficit in our buget over the next 4 financial years. And they are going to borrow $70 Billion to pay for the $42 billion dollar stimulus package.

              Comment


              • #8
                You're speaking to the person who has been paying off a loan for 2 years.

                Debt is not a problem. Now give me my money!

                Comment


                • #9
                  If Howard and costello didn't leave us with a false economy and rising interest rates, maybe there would be no need for a stimulus package.

                  With howard there was a small period of prosperity that was then overtaken by the greed and money grabbing of big business.

                  the libral surplus saw rising interest rates, rising house prices, higher cost of living.

                  This is a reality check, we need this to rebuild the house of cards howard and costello built.

                  Delecto Oriens est odio Meridianus
                  To love Easts is to hate Souffs

                  Originally posted by Bill Shankley, Liverpool FC
                  At a football club, there’s a holy trinity – the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don’t come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques.
                  Originally posted by Andy Raymond Commentating Souffs V Manly 18/04/09
                  The fireworks at the Easter show are making more noise than the crowd tonight

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by supermario View Post
                    If Howard and costello didn't leave us with a false economy and rising interest rates, maybe there would be no need for a stimulus package.

                    With howard there was a small period of prosperity that was then overtaken by the greed and money grabbing of big business.
                    the libral surplus saw rising interest rates, rising house prices, higher cost of living.

                    This is a reality check, we need this to rebuild the house of cards howard and costello built.
                    Muzz can you go into a little more detail regarding the bits I have bolded

                    rising interest rates were due to inflation

                    rising housing prices was due to a decade of prosperity

                    and rising costs of living were due to the effects of inflation which is why interest rates had to rise to keep prices under control.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      there was a time there where the average Joe was able to move forward, they were able to buy a house, invest in shares and cost of living was equal to pay........

                      Howard promised he would not lift rates. instead of keeping check on the economy, he allowed interest rates to rise to the higest levels they had been for MANY MANY years. Why? cause the howard government could not control inflation in any other way than increasing interest rates.

                      In the end howard said himself in 2006 "some level of debt is not necessarily bad".

                      While the Rudd/swann plan is alot of debt, but we will see alot of that put into public works and supporting jobs especially for small business.

                      In the end, At howards end, we were left with a downward spiraling economy, this cannot be disputed.

                      he relied too much on China and mining, now china is being hit by the credit crunch, that life line is now running dry, rudd is now trying to establish australia again from within.

                      Delecto Oriens est odio Meridianus
                      To love Easts is to hate Souffs

                      Originally posted by Bill Shankley, Liverpool FC
                      At a football club, there’s a holy trinity – the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don’t come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques.
                      Originally posted by Andy Raymond Commentating Souffs V Manly 18/04/09
                      The fireworks at the Easter show are making more noise than the crowd tonight

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by supermario View Post
                        If Howard and costello didn't leave us with a false economy and rising interest rates, maybe there would be no need for a stimulus package.

                        With howard there was a small period of prosperity that was then overtaken by the greed and money grabbing of big business.

                        the libral surplus saw rising interest rates, rising house prices, higher cost of living.

                        This is a reality check, we need this to rebuild the house of cards howard and costello built.
                        Isn't the reality check that we are better off than most of the rest of the world due to the strong economy under the coalition government?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Muaddib View Post
                          Isn't the reality check that we are better off than most of the rest of the world due to the strong economy under the coalition government?
                          Maybe our economy was not as strong as it once was when howard left office.

                          Delecto Oriens est odio Meridianus
                          To love Easts is to hate Souffs

                          Originally posted by Bill Shankley, Liverpool FC
                          At a football club, there’s a holy trinity – the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don’t come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques.
                          Originally posted by Andy Raymond Commentating Souffs V Manly 18/04/09
                          The fireworks at the Easter show are making more noise than the crowd tonight

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            what jamie is correctly pointing out is that without howards foresight we would have been in far worse a position and certainly not in a position to be able to financially stimulate the market. bitch and whinge all you like about the things howard did poorly, but credit where its due.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by supermario View Post
                              there was a time there where the average Joe was able to move forward, they were able to buy a house, invest in shares and cost of living was equal to pay........

                              Howard promised he would not lift rates. instead of keeping check on the economy, he allowed interest rates to rise to the higest levels they had been for MANY MANY years. Why? cause the howard government could not control inflation in any other way than increasing interest rates.

                              In the end howard said himself in 2006 "some level of debt is not necessarily bad".

                              While the Rudd/swann plan is alot of debt, but we will see alot of that put into public works and supporting jobs especially for small business.

                              In the end, At howards end, we were left with a downward spiraling economy, this cannot be disputed.

                              he relied too much on China and mining, now china is being hit by the credit crunch, that life line is now running dry, rudd is now trying to establish australia again from within.
                              Howard never promised not to lift rates (I have asked people to provide evidence of this assertion and nobody has ever been able to do so because it was a myth perpetuated by Beazley after the 2004 election). Even if he did make such a promise, he couldn't have because the Reserve Bank of Australia set interest rates not the Federal Government.

                              The main reason the Howard had problems with inflation was due the rising cost of oil of which the government has no control over.

                              How can you say the Howard government left us with a spiralling downward economy?

                              We had unemployment at a 30 year low

                              Still fairly low interest rates

                              A record $22 billion surplus and no government debt

                              Muzz have you been drinking the Labor Koolaid?

                              or reading Krudd's communist manifesto?

                              Comment

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