The gory glory of religion!

[stephenj]

the wierdest part of the roman catholic church is the issue of males not taking a wife? it goes against the laws of nature and im suyre has led to some of the wierd sexual abberations by some catholic priests or 'brothers';? then again whats the excuse in the protestant churches..there is none! our muslim friends on their bloodlust rampage are just continuing their need to regress back to the middle ages? might be time soon for another crusade, this time with nukes?

[Guest]

lol..a so called atheist whinging about ignorance

The definition of an athetist is basically ignorance. Not only ignorance about the existance of God but ignorance about many of the good things religion or christianity brings to societies, from things like charities, schools, hospitals etc and even the common laws in our society which originated from the bible.

What has atheism given to society apart from sweet F.A ignorance??

As above, ignorance is the fundamental cornerstone of atheism.

Atheism is the peeling back of eons of religious dogma and has provided “heretics” a legitimate viewpoint to see religion for what it is, a mechanism of control by a few over many and an excuse to murder and kill. "Gods" are a myth Rocky, they do not exist in the exact same way as the Greek, Norse and Aztec pantheons of gods, Santa, the tooth fairy, leprechauns do not exist. Science and exploration has shown us what is "up there" and what is "down there", there is no heaven, no Valhalla and no hell.

I suppose you think the massacres of Martin Byrant or Ivan Malat were religious based? (just 2 names off the top of my head)

These two examples had nothing to do with religion yet created a massacre. Bryant was just a bigot who discriminated against race or religion, race in his case. In a way similar to yourself discriminating against all religion.

Oh so I’m an Ivan Malat or a Martin Bryant because I call religion for how I see it? Talk about ignorance Rocky, you just scored an own goal! I could go all puff pastry like JohnL and say you’ve been mean, but heeeeeey, whatever floats your boat.

So you judge all religions based on what the catholics do? Do you judge all league supporters based on a small percentage of bulldog thugs?

Aids was created via scientists mistakes in a lab with monkeys. By your genius logic maybe we should rid the world of these evil science and it's scientist.

Here you demonstrate your ignorance yet gain Rocky. Aids was a result of humans having sex with monkeys, not in some test tube. Perhaps you should learn what you’re talking about before you start talking?

Judging something on extreme positions? Should we judge global warming on those with extreme positions? If we do then it's rubbish.

I'm not the biased ignorant one with blinkers on here. I never said all religions are good not would i practice many religions. There are extremist and extreme positions in every walk of life. Unlike you i can see the big picture.

Fair enough. Here’s a question for Rocky, do you think the good religions do outweighs the evils religions do?

Chook.

[Guest]

On ya Fonzy.....no one can put their point across without you ripping them another arsehole.

The catholic church advises people to abstain from pre marital sex. They are also against contraception. That is their stance, always has been. The WHO though must have no presence in Africa and must not have any contact with these people right? The ramifications is not their fault. You can argue that point till you are blue in the face and I am sure you will.

Damn right I will because you and the catholic church are wrong. No organisation religious or otherwise can be exempt from the ramification of the lies they spread. If we go back to my analogy of the car manufacturer, if you know nothing of cars and a car manufacturer states to you that wearing seat belt is not necessary and won’t protect you from injury or death, yet you die or are injured as a result of not wearing a seat belt, is that your fault of that of the manufacturer who advised you?

I am going to play semantics here again. You say the people of Africa are being lied to by the catholic church. Are you talking about the institution or a representative of the catholic church? The BBC article you presented is one person that is associated with the catholic church.

Of course you’ll play semantics, that’s all you have left. A catholic bishop is NOT merely associated, he is a funded representative of that religious institution. Your attempt to portray a bishop as “associated” with the church to try and alleviate the church of any responsibility is a true reflection of religious ignorance.

The second article the Pope does not say that condoms are not the answer, but he does say it could make the problem worse. Now why would that be? I will explain it to you. He - and the catholic church - believe in abstinence from sex until marriage. In the event of promoting the use of condoms, it is condones promiscuity.

Now you don't have to agree with what they preach but you must agree that abstinence from sex is THE safest way of all.

Of course it is but it’s a religious concept that is not working!! Aids is spreading and the catholic church is contributing to that spread through continuing with this stupid concept!

Let’s see if you can honestly answer these two questions with regards to this subject:
What’s more important to you, religious dogma or human life?
What’s more important to the catholic church, religious dogma or human life?

If it was not religious excuses for the killing and massacres, it would be something else.

Agreed, but without religion there is at least one less excuse for killing and massacres.

Chook.

[Guest]

The catholic church don't make condoms...so they are not the manufacturer. Maybe car manufactures need to advise that we make sure we close the doors on the car before we drive away. Also make sure you don't hang out of the window whislt you drive. While they are at it advise not to run into a tree whilst driving with or without a seat belt. When does the person make their own choice?

The bishop has a personal view that is not backed up by the instituion of the catholic church. I think that is failry plain to see.

AIDS is spreading because people keep having sex. That is plain and once again simple. You don't have to agree with the stance of the church but that becomes your choice. The World Health Orgainisation would have a presence in Africa right? What do you think they are advising? I am going to take a guess...They are telling the African people to put condoms on or they run the risk of catching AIDS and dying. The people of Africa see people dying all the time of AIDS yet this message still fails to get through and this is all the fault of the catholics. The catholic church cannot stop people putting condoms on before sex. Or maybe you have a view on that. I get it now, the catholics want all these people to catch AIDS so they can get rid of the sinners......

As for the honest answer it is human life for both myself AND the catholic church. By adivising people to abstain from sex is an alternative to promsicuity.

I believe in safe sex, I believe in contraception, I also have no problem with promiscuity, that becomes a personal chioce. Just to let you know, I am NOT a spokesperson for the catholic church.

This: "The Health Minister, Aaron Motsoaledi, said on Monday that the safe sex message was being ignored because people believe HIV can now be easily treated."

From this article: http://www.smh.com.au/world/south-af...0309-pvv6.html

I guess the catholci church is spreading that message as well.

This: "One reason is "risk compensation." That is, when people think they're made safe by using condoms at least some of the time, they actually engage in riskier sex."

And:"So what has worked in Africa? Strategies that break up these multiple and concurrent sexual networks -- or, in plain language, faithful mutual monogamy or at least reduction in numbers of partners, especially concurrent ones. "Closed" or faithful polygamy can work as well. "

And: "This was a key point in a 2004 "consensus statement" published and endorsed by some 150 global AIDS experts, including representatives the United Nations, World Health Organization and World Bank. These experts also affirmed that for sexually active adults, the first priority should be to promote mutual fidelity."

From this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032702825.html

No mention of the catholic church in all of this research. Even the WHO are mentioned....

That is all, I am done.

[stephenj]

the catholic church consistently lie about the status of Mary Magdalene, shes made out to be a whore and a slut! certainly not the wife of Jesus? accepting that dogma is it a wider stretch of the imagination to consider that Jesus may have enjoyed carnal pleasures with his wife and thus fathered a family, whose lines continue to this day in northern France? easier to consider than some of the miracles hes accredited with? much easier to put down women to allow the continuance of male domination in the church hierarchy?

[Rocky Rhodes]

=Chook;Atheism is the peeling back of eons of religious dogma and has provided “heretics” a legitimate viewpoint to see religion for what it is, a mechanism of control by a few over many and an excuse to murder and kill.

Very generalised nothing statement. Governments and big multi-nationals exert control over ppls too, why not unleach on them.

Murder and killing will occur with or without religion, i have given you many examples. When will it sink into your thick head. The bible promotes peace and is anti-war, i don't speak for every religion but christianity certainly does. I can back that up if you wish.

"Gods" are a myth Rocky, they do not exist in the exact same way as the Greek, Norse and Aztec pantheons of gods, Santa, the tooth fairy, leprechauns do not exist.

I have heard these childish naive comparisons before. God created the universe, man, livings things and all other creation here on earth, what have all these other myths done.

Science and exploration has shown us what is "up there" and what is "down there", there is no heaven, no Valhalla and no hell.

Perhaps the dumbest thing you have ever said on any forum. Man's exploration of the universe is only a drop in the ocean. Looking thru a telescope here or in space cannot tell if life or God exists on another planet in some far away galaxy. You worship Science yet know nothing about it, well you know nothing about Astronomy it seems. Funny that..

Oh so I’m an Ivan Malat or a Martin Bryant because I call religion for how I see it? Talk about ignorance Rocky, you just scored an own goal! I could go all puff pastry like JohnL and say you’ve been mean, but heeeeeey, whatever floats your boat.

Lame attempt to twist things. My point is that bigotary against race or "religion" may lead to bad actions.

Here you demonstrate your ignorance yet gain Rocky. Aids was a result of humans having sex with monkeys, not in some test tube. Perhaps you should learn what you’re talking about before you start talking?

Care to back that up with a source, i don't claim to know everything.

I hope you do because there is a good reason why we do need religion. To try and stop us from doing ungodly things to monkeys and wiping out ourselves.

Fair enough. Here’s a question for Rocky, do you think the good religions do outweighs the evils religions do?

For sure and certain, i'm busy now but i will post my reasons (i've already posted many) at another time.

I have nothing against atheist because i believe ppls have the rights to make their own decisions and religion should not be forced upon another. But if someone comes in swinging against it i see a right to defend it.

Continue on chook but you need to lift your act significantly if you wish to challenge someone's beliefs. So far you have provided very little substance you "nothing" botherer.

[Guest]

Imagine if an alien came to this planet to explain that the whole universe was against what mankind are doing atm. What would be the fate of the "messenger" ?

[supermario]

Even today the Catholic Church is directly responsible for the deaths and suffering of millions in Africa through their dissemination of pamphlets advising AGIANST the use of condoms to stop the spread of aids instead saying that condoms CAUSE the spread of aids!! A practice that has been widely condemned by the World Health Organisation!

Here is catholic bishop farkbrain saying that condoms are infected with HIV on purpose.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7014335.stm

Here is Heir farkin Ratzinger only last year reiterating that condoms, the simplest and most effective way to stop the spread of aids, are not the answer!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...a-condoms-aids

Pretty farking enlightening don’t you think Rocky? Yeah we certainly need more of this utter garbage from religion don’t we Rocky?

“Anyone who thinks religions are the source of the world's problems is an simpleton idiot.”

Whose the simpleton idiot now Rocky?

Chook.

Well Chook, you see the thing with the church, while they are not always right they are consistant with their policies.

the Church has always been Anti Contraception and Pro Absitnence.

you can simplify the curches policy to this, if you have promiscuous sex with a condom, you still have a chance to get an STD.

Where as if you Abstain from sex.......you get the drift.

I am not condoning what the church is preaching, just out lining that while they are anti contraception, they do offer an alternitive.

---------------

As to Religous violence...............go back as far as you want in history, it has always been around, but the thing is, 99.99% of the time, it is the interpretation of religious text or the prophetic "visions" of a few that have lead to war and bloodshed and the lust for power.

Go back to Joan of arc, she belived that god told her to fight the british, the british though she was a heathen and burnt her at the stake.

the Spanish inquisition was another example of the Catholic Church weilding its power in early europe.

move foward to today, you have al qaeda taking parts of the Koran and manipulating it's context to make it seem like the koran is asking all muslims to take up arms against the "infidels".

With or without religion, there will be some sort of belief, be it in family, state, country, political view or race that will cause violence and hurt.

While there are people that manipulate religious texts and influence others, there will be religious violence.

there is good and bad in this world,in race, religion, politics, you name it, it has a good and bad side.

The thing that can be said for religions, it gives people belief, hope and faith. Alot can be said for the effect faith and prayer can have on a person, it can give someone the will to live and survive, to hope and believe.

that is the essence of religion, no the power struggle.

[Guest]

I have heard these childish naive comparisons before. God created the universe, man, livings things and all other creation here on earth, what have all these other myths done.

Actually Rocky, the accretion process was responsible for the creation of Earth as is being seen in other solar systems right now.
http://members.madasafish.com/~newth...accretion.html
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/epo/powerpoi....disk.talk.pdf

No god, no celestial being manipulating anything, just gravity and matter interacting. Facts mate, pure, unbiased facts that can be seen, researched, studied, analysed and quantified!

Perhaps the dumbest thing you have ever said on any forum. Man's exploration of the universe is only a drop in the ocean. Looking thru a telescope here or in space cannot tell if life or God exists on another planet in some far away galaxy. You worship Science yet know nothing about it, well you know nothing about Astronomy it seems. Funny that..

We're not talking about god existing on another planet, we're talking about it existing on this planet! We don't need a telescope to see - science, physics, exploration, experimentation, education and our insatiable curiosity has proven the myths and lies of religious texts are just that - myths and lies! The Earth is more than 10K years old, it was not made in 6 days, there are such things as dinosaurs, we are not evolved from just two human beings! These are facts Rocky, indisputable facts!

Lame attempt to twist things. My point is that bigotary against race or "religion" may lead to bad actions.

True, but it was religious bigotry that lead to the massacre I originally posted. By merely comparing other acts of violence you are admitting it (religious bigotry) happens, all you are doing is trying to lessen peoples outrage about it by saying, "well look over there they do it too". Martin and Milat were prosecuted, found guilty of their crimes and sentenced. Who is holding the religious institutions to account for the evils they do? Obviously not you, you're too busy making excuses for them.

Care to back that up with a source, i don't claim to know everything.

I hope you do because there is a good reason why we do need religion. To try and stop us from doing ungodly things to monkeys and wiping out ourselves.

Well there is more than one theory actually about its origins so we'll call this point a dead rubber and move on.

For sure and certain, i'm busy now but i will post my reasons (i've already posted many) at another time.

I have nothing against atheist because i believe ppls have the rights to make their own decisions and religion should not be forced upon another. But if someone comes in swinging against it i see a right to defend it.

Continue on chook but you need to lift your act significantly if you wish to challenge someone's beliefs. So far you have provided very little substance you "nothing" botherer.

Oh I'm winning Rocky, in this thread and overall. Atheism is growing, religions are declining and will continue to decline until such time as they are relegated to the history books and spoken in similar terms as the flat earth principle.

You say you believe people have the right to make their own decisions, does that include your children or their children? The one major thing atheists have on their side is that insatiable curiosity that man has to explore, research and find out why something is rather than simply accepting that it is. And the more people question the why, the less relevance religion will have in their lives.

Chook.

[Guest]

Well Chook, you see the thing with the church, while they are not always right they are consistant with their policies.

the Church has always been Anti Contraception and Pro Absitnence.

you can simplify the curches policy to this, if you have promiscuous sex with a condom, you still have a chance to get an STD.

Where as if you Abstain from sex.......you get the drift.

I am not condoning what the church is preaching, just out lining that while they are anti contraception, they do offer an alternitive.

Contraception is not the issue and the church "alternative" is not working as aids is still spreading and it (the church's stance) is unnecessarily putting people's lives at risk. My question to you is when does religious dogma (the church's stance on condoms) outweigh the risk to a human life?

My point is the church knows its stance is putting peoples lives at risk, and in my opinion is directly responsible for countless deaths, yet it continues to maintain that stance all the while claiming it's acting for the good of these people.

Chook.

[Guest]

As for the honest answer it is human life for both myself AND the catholic church. By adivising people to abstain from sex is an alternative to promsicuity.

Promiscuity is not the issue, stopping the spread of aids is the issue! So when that alternative (abstinence) is proven to be ineffective at stopping the spread of aids and is in fact putting people's lives at risk, when does religious dogma outweigh the risk to a human life?

Chook.

[supermario]

Contraception is not the issue and the church "alternative" is not working as aids is still spreading and it (the church's stance) is unnecessarily putting people's lives at risk. My question to you is when does religious dogma (the church's stance on condoms) outweigh the risk to a human life?

My point is the church knows its stance is putting peoples lives at risk, and in my opinion is directly responsible for countless deaths, yet it continues to maintain that stance all the while claiming it's acting for the good of these people.

Chook.

Actually chook, the church's stance is for people to be abstinent, this stance is no causing the spread of aids.

people have free will, they can choose to Abstain or they can choose to have sex, with or without condoms..........if they do, there is still a chance of catching STD's.

The curch's stance of abstinence is the only way of avoiding the spread of aids.

Put it this way, a car can travel up to 200 km, while travelling at that speed may provide thrill and exillarhation, there is an inherent risk of injury and death. (obviously there are other situations that cause car accidents, but for the sake of this comment, we will stick to speeding)

To avoid this inherent risk, people abstain from travelling as such speeds.

While the government does not force the car companies to stop cars going that fast, the government does have a policy in place to advise drivers that it is wrong to travel at such speed......................................

yet people still do it.

it comes down to education and free will, thats the impotant thing, free will, while the church Says abstinence is the way, in the end, if someone decides to have promisuous sex with or without a condom that is of their free will, the church has advised that there are risks of having sex with condoms, if someone wishes to take those chances, that is their choice and responsibility.

[Guest]

Actually chook, the church's stance is for people to be abstinent, this stance is no causing the spread of aids.

people have free will, they can choose to Abstain or they can choose to have sex, with or without condoms..........if they do, there is still a chance of catching STD's.

The curch's stance of abstinence is the only way of avoiding the spread of aids.

Put it this way, a car can travel up to 200 km, while travelling at that speed may provide thrill and exillarhation, there is an inherent risk of injury and death. (obviously there are other situations that cause car accidents, but for the sake of this comment, we will stick to speeding)

To avoid this inherent risk, people abstain from travelling as such speeds.

While the government does not force the car companies to stop cars going that fast, the government does have a policy in place to advise drivers that it is wrong to travel at such speed......................................

yet people still do it.

it comes down to education and free will, thats the impotant thing, free will, while the church Says abstinence is the way, in the end, if someone decides to have promisuous sex with or without a condom that is of their free will, the church has advised that there are risks of having sex with condoms, if someone wishes to take those chances, that is their choice and responsibility.

We shall agree to disagree then Mario.

Besides the footy is back and we beat Souffs, time to leave "off topic" till season end. Bye till then

Chook.

[Guest]

Religion is a big problem.

But I work in a Catholic school, was raised a Catholic and now choose not to practice any religion. I keep my opinions to myself, I respect those who do practice and I don't try to change anyone. I wish others could do the same.

The world would be a better place without the fanatics.

I absolutely despise the Catholic education system, They may be better schools but it really shits me to the core how they get away with such blatant in your face discrimination against non-Catholics looking for work.

When you look at other independent religious schools you don't have to be of that religion to teach there.

*No offense to the Catholics here*

In regards to the situation around the world, I think it has nothing to do with religion and has everything to do with ignorance & stupidity.

[Guest]

In regards to the situation around the world, I think it has nothing to do with religion and has everything to do with ignorance & stupidity.

100% correct.