Wikileaks - has the line been crossed ???

[Guest]

Here are some facts seeing you want to explore those Chook. The NBN will cost Australian tax payer's more than twice its billed $43Billion. Oh and currently we dont have the resource to get it finished (in the time frame alotted) by the way.

The internet filter will never be allowed as a stand alone offering. Its already been rejected under the realization that it cuts against the very free speech you are reveling in at the moment. But they will sneak it in bundled in the NBN rollout.

Fiber to every home. unlikely. Not with 4G here. Fiber = white elephant. For the home at least thats true.

Its not Conroy's or the government's responsibility to protect people from the internet. Its yours and mine. At least in a free world it is.

No facts there melon, just more of your right-wing, anti Labor conspiracy theory bullshit.

If and when you actually have any facts by all means bring them to the table for discussion, until then stop regurgitating Hadley's transparent spin.

Chook.

[melon....]

No facts there melon, just more of your right-wing, anti Labor conspiracy theory bullshit.

If and when you actually have any facts by all means bring them to the table for discussion, until then stop regurgitating Hadley's transparent spin.

Chook.

Thats the problem with labor voters Chook. They cant cop criticism of their party's/government's failings. Your good at dishing it out, but wont wear any of it.

When the chickens come home to roost, and the real cost is there for all to see, you wont be denying it then.

In regards to technology, fiber across the entire country, is NOT the sensible or future proof answer.

The government should have spent 20 billion on beefing up the Metro Area network fiber and building the wireless highway of the future based on 4G...like the real technology powers of the world are. They could have then spent the other 20 or 30 they claim on much needed boost in Health and transport infrastructure.

We "righties" arent all about save save save and never spend. its about sound management and good decision making as to where and how you spend it. Im amazed you cannot see how every Labor initiative undertaken since 2007 has been royally ****ed up by incompetence. But you seem to think this one's going to be different?

But i welcome you to debate the merits of flying glass over telegraph poles in cyclone areas like Cairns over the use of wireless 4G any day. I welcome you to debate the merits of a 10 year rollout costing 100 billion, that will never get finished, over using existing soon to be unused Analogue TV spectrum (and thousands of existing rooftop infrastructure)to provide more than adequate broadband services in the bush where currently there is nothing.

You see, the bush doesnt need facebook, or fast movies or bullshit online "health services". It needs a pulse, a dial tone. It more importantly needs health and education services. it needs water management. It needa a thousand other things before it needs Fiber Internet access.

If we ever deliver ADSL or 2 plus speeds to the most remote areas in the bush wirelessly, that will suffice for the majority of their needs, including IP telephony, online services and media downloads for decades. Ironically they will also have access to the facebooks, and online gizmos they dont need today if they choose to use it. And it will all work flawlessly. At a tenth of the cost to the tax payer.

Bourke isnt Ultimo or Surry Hills or Manuka or Yarralumla. It doesnt need the models on bill boards advertising the best and fastest ISP services. And it doesn't need fiber optic speeds for basic services they dont have at the moment.

Conroy is a totalitarian fool that will not debate in the Senate, rather take his bat and ball and walk out when challenged with the options and the real facts. I pray his supporters arent all the same and will stick around for a chat.

There are better more cost effective, achievable options - like re utilizing the Analogue Spectrum and the emerging 4G services. This One size fits all approach by Labor is wrong, flawed, uncosted, (where's the business case - nt the 32 page bullshit summary), and a waste.

[Guest]

Thats the problem with labor voters Chook. They cant cop criticism of their party's/government's failings. Your good at dishing it out, but wont wear any of it.

Pot Kettle Black mate. You can’t see the benefits of the NBN because you choose to ignore them because they are initiated by Labor. I have no doubt that had the Liberal’s chose to implement this infrastructure you and Hadley and Jones and the rest of the rusted on liberals would be singing their praises form on high.

Have Labor farked up, sure they have. Just like every other government in our history has farked up some policy or program at some stage melon. Deny that if you can?

When the chickens come home to roost, and the real cost is there for all to see, you wont be denying it then.

I’m not denying anything melon. I’m stating the cost of the NBN will be worth it. You’re the one denying it. It’s just you're regurgitating Hadley’s bullshit points and claiming the as fact.

In regards to technology, fiber across the entire country, is NOT the sensible or future proof answer.

The government should have spent 20 billion on beefing up the Metro Area network fiber and building the wireless highway of the future based on 4G...like the real technology powers of the world are. They could have then spent the other 20 or 30 they claim on much needed boost in Health and transport infrastructure.

So fibre is fine for the metro but not for the bush.? They just get wireless eh? Typical liberal party thinking, use the bush to get elected through the pathetic national party morons and then fark them over, just like they did when they sold Telstra.

We "righties" arent all about save save save and never spend.

Yes you are. That is exactly what you are. Aren’t you the one that continually states “fark the socialists”? Do you even know what a socialist is?

its about sound management and good decision making as to where and how you spend it.

You are half right. When liberals spend they ONLY spend on the rich in the form of tax breaks just like Jackboot Howard did for 11 years melon, he spent nothing on infrastructure and provided tax breaks to buy elections. So your claim is again rubbisht in the face of facts.

Im amazed you cannot see how every Labor initiative undertaken since 2007 has been royally ****ed up by incompetence. But you seem to think this one's going to be different?

As I said Labor has farked up but that does not detract from the benefits of this infrastructure spending.

But i welcome you to debate the merits of flying glass over telegraph poles in cyclone areas like Cairns over the use of wireless 4G any day.

A wireless antenna would be just as susceptible to a cyclone melon and you know it. But then this is just another Hadley bullshit talking point isn’t it? It's quite obvious where you get your so called "NBN facts" melon.

I welcome you to debate the merits of a 10 year rollout costing 100 billion, that will never get finished, over using existing soon to be unused Analogue TV spectrum (and thousands of existing rooftop infrastructure)to provide more than adequate broadband services in the bush where currently there is nothing.

How magnanimous of you. That you can decide what is and isn’t adequate for the bush? The bush pay their taxes melon just like the rest of us and as such they are just as entitled to the same internet coverage as the rest of Australia given they are paying for it just like the rest of us. But in true Liberal thinking you would have them pay their fair share only to provide them substandard coverage (wireless) because you want only the metro to have fibre.

You see, the bush doesnt need facebook, or fast movies or bullshit online "health services". It needs a pulse, a dial tone. It more importantly needs health and education services. it needs water management. It needa a thousand other things before it needs Fiber Internet access.

How do you know what the bush needs? In truth you don’t do you! What you want is for you to have the best (metro fibre) and the bush to have a second grade internet (wireless) but you want them to pay as much as you do. That's borderline socialism melon, you should be careful you don't step over that fine line.

If we ever deliver ADSL or 2 plus speeds to the most remote areas in the bush wirelessly, that will suffice for the majority of their needs, including IP telephony, online services and media downloads for decades. Ironically they will also have access to the facebooks, and online gizmos they dont need today if they choose to use it. And it will all work flawlessly. At a tenth of the cost to the tax payer.

Once again you are choosing what one region of Australia should receive in regards to internet access and speed based purely on what you want. Why should the bush get substandard internet access and speed if they are expected to pay the same as the rest of us?

Bourke isnt Ultimo or Surry Hills or Manuka or Yarralumla. It doesnt need the models on bill boards advertising the best and fastest ISP services. And it doesn't need fiber optic speeds for basic services they dont have at the moment.

I dare you to take your message of “we know what you need” to the bush melon, they would eat you alive.

Conroy is a totalitarian fool that will not debate in the Senate, rather take his bat and ball and walk out when challenged with the options and the real facts. I pray his supporters arent all the same and will stick around for a chat.

There are better more cost effective, achievable options - like re utilizing the Analogue Spectrum and the emerging 4G services. This One size fits all approach by Labor is wrong, flawed, uncosted, (where's the business case - nt the 32 page bullshit summary), and a waste.

You are wrong, as you mostly are on issue such as these. What you are proposing would be the greatest waste of money in our history bar none! Re-utilize the analogue spectrum? How exactly melon would you re-utilize an outdated medium? While we’re at it let’s make better use of the horse and sulky, or wait, no we can make better use of carrier pigeons.

Chook.

[Kingbilly]

Chook an NBN of some form is not a bad idea. (I just don't think fibre optic is sensible Aust wide)

But here is some points you really need to conisder.

No one and I mean no one NEEDS a super highspeed internet apart from Hospitals, maybe schools and some big business, regardless of whether they are in the country or not.

Most rural people that are in a location that would be serviced by fibre optics already have ADSL or ADSL2 speeds. Those that are remote and can't get ADSL now are certainly not going to get 100s of miles of fibre optic to their door.

I have no problem looking to the future and developing a network that will work.
What I have a problem with is the lies about it being a "rural" solution ( I have plenty of relatives in the country so I am not making this up)
I have a problem with Conroy and his sneaky underhanded methods and secrecy. You accuse Melon of trying to tell the country people what they require, well what the hell do you think Conroy is doing.

[melon....]

Pot Kettle Black mate. You can’t see the benefits of the NBN because you choose to ignore them because they are initiated by Labor. I have no doubt that had the Liberal’s chose to implement this infrastructure you and Hadley and Jones and the rest of the rusted on liberals would be singing their praises form on high.

Have Labor farked up, sure they have. Just like every other government in our history has farked up some policy or program at some stage melon. Deny that if you can?



I’m not denying anything melon. I’m stating the cost of the NBN will be worth it. You’re the one denying it. It’s just you're regurgitating Hadley’s bullshit points and claiming the as fact.



So fibre is fine for the metro but not for the bush.? They just get wireless eh? Typical liberal party thinking, use the bush to get elected through the pathetic national party morons and then fark them over, just like they did when they sold Telstra.



Yes you are. That is exactly what you are. Aren’t you the one that continually states “fark the socialists”? Do you even know what a socialist is?



You are half right. When liberals spend they ONLY spend on the rich in the form of tax breaks just like Jackboot Howard did for 11 years melon, he spent nothing on infrastructure and provided tax breaks to buy elections. So your claim is again rubbisht in the face of facts.



As I said Labor has farked up but that does not detract from the benefits of this infrastructure spending.



A wireless antenna would be just as susceptible to a cyclone melon and you know it. But then this is just another Hadley bullshit talking point isn’t it? It's quite obvious where you get your so called "NBN facts" melon.



How magnanimous of you. That you can decide what is and isn’t adequate for the bush? The bush pay their taxes melon just like the rest of us and as such they are just as entitled to the same internet coverage as the rest of Australia given they are paying for it just like the rest of us. But in true Liberal thinking you would have them pay their fair share only to provide them substandard coverage (wireless) because you want only the metro to have fibre.



How do you know what the bush needs? In truth you don’t do you! What you want is for you to have the best (metro fibre) and the bush to have a second grade internet (wireless) but you want them to pay as much as you do. That's borderline socialism melon, you should be careful you don't step over that fine line.



Once again you are choosing what one region of Australia should receive in regards to internet access and speed based purely on what you want. Why should the bush get substandard internet access and speed if they are expected to pay the same as the rest of us?



I dare you to take your message of “we know what you need” to the bush melon, they would eat you alive.



You are wrong, as you mostly are on issue such as these. What you are proposing would be the greatest waste of money in our history bar none! Re-utilize the analogue spectrum? How exactly melon would you re-utilize an outdated medium? While we’re at it let’s make better use of the horse and sulky, or wait, no we can make better use of carrier pigeons.

Chook.

And yet, you wont get a fiber cable to the house on 20,000sq miles of sheep station. But you will give them service via sat satellite, Analogue TV spectrum or other wireless/microwave technology. The one stop all in solution this hopeless government is proposing is not going to serve those remote places.

Read a bit about it to see what it can offer.

http://www.techworld.com.au/article/...ack_from_dead/

Also A Perth Based company Vividwireless (not related to adult entertainment group Vivid Video) is already offering Australia's first 4G services. Its already here, but lets pay 20 times more to try and roll out fiber to areas we wont be able to....doesnt make sense.

[Guest]

I thought we had a seperate thread on this but anyways....

You need 5Mbps for HD TV. That is as good as a residential customer needs. 100Mbps will never be used in a residential home. Sure, you might be able to download a move in 2 minutes, but it still takes you 90 mins to watch it.

I work for a ISP that offers very fast broadband but it has not been snatched up by subscribers. Why? Because they are happy with their 20Mbps and the cost they pay now. They do not want to pay the extra to get up to 5 times the download speed.

Just trying to figure out how NBN will make people take the offer up where the most money is generated...in the cities...when people aren't clamouring to get that even though it is available right now.

[melon....]

Pot Kettle Black mate. You can’t see the benefits of the NBN because you choose to ignore them because they are initiated by Labor. I have no doubt that had the Liberal’s chose to implement this infrastructure you and Hadley and Jones and the rest of the rusted on liberals would be singing their praises form on high.

Have Labor farked up, sure they have. Just like every other government in our history has farked up some policy or program at some stage melon. Deny that if you can?



I’m not denying anything melon. I’m stating the cost of the NBN will be worth it. You’re the one denying it. It’s just you're regurgitating Hadley’s bullshit points and claiming the as fact.

And for the record, I know exactly what a socialist is. A true Socialist. And I know what Social Justice is also. Its a pity the ones calling themselves Socialists dont know. Yes Chook...**** em !!


So fibre is fine for the metro but not for the bush.? They just get wireless eh? Typical liberal party thinking, use the bush to get elected through the pathetic national party morons and then fark them over, just like they did when they sold Telstra.



Yes you are. That is exactly what you are. Aren’t you the one that continually states “fark the socialists”? Do you even know what a socialist is?



You are half right. When liberals spend they ONLY spend on the rich in the form of tax breaks just like Jackboot Howard did for 11 years melon, he spent nothing on infrastructure and provided tax breaks to buy elections. So your claim is again rubbisht in the face of facts.



As I said Labor has farked up but that does not detract from the benefits of this infrastructure spending.



A wireless antenna would be just as susceptible to a cyclone melon and you know it. But then this is just another Hadley bullshit talking point isn’t it? It's quite obvious where you get your so called "NBN facts" melon.



How magnanimous of you. That you can decide what is and isn’t adequate for the bush? The bush pay their taxes melon just like the rest of us and as such they are just as entitled to the same internet coverage as the rest of Australia given they are paying for it just like the rest of us. But in true Liberal thinking you would have them pay their fair share only to provide them substandard coverage (wireless) because you want only the metro to have fibre.



How do you know what the bush needs? In truth you don’t do you! What you want is for you to have the best (metro fibre) and the bush to have a second grade internet (wireless) but you want them to pay as much as you do. That's borderline socialism melon, you should be careful you don't step over that fine line.



Once again you are choosing what one region of Australia should receive in regards to internet access and speed based purely on what you want. Why should the bush get substandard internet access and speed if they are expected to pay the same as the rest of us?



I dare you to take your message of “we know what you need” to the bush melon, they would eat you alive.



You are wrong, as you mostly are on issue such as these. What you are proposing would be the greatest waste of money in our history bar none! Re-utilize the analogue spectrum? How exactly melon would you re-utilize an outdated medium? While we’re at it let’s make better use of the horse and sulky, or wait, no we can make better use of carrier pigeons.

Chook.

Your rationale is flawed and your hatred for all things to the right side is clouding your view. Take your response to my comments regarding City V Country requirements. Its bullshit. The reality is, the City Ring with all the major corporates and congested application and bandwidth requirements requires Fiber - we have that now. Corporates pay, to plumb their systems into their networks.

Most country businesses dont need this supply. Most houses will never need it.

I recently did a stint at a large national telco. I learnt something from their National Sales team. When you advertise in the Cities, you go all out, billboards, ads, supermodels at the races, footy half time promos, radio, the works. All this for a "new feature" that is only useful to 10 % of the populous, but it sells because of the demographic. It wants it. City is full of feature wants.

Yet The same sales team is always asked just one thing from the rural demographic. Can I get reception? How much cheaper are you than the big T? Why? Because the rural requirements are not feature wants...they are basic functionality needs.

The Big T has a monopoly on all country based services, and the other telcos are just starting to create a viable presence. if you can provide a signal thats cheaper than Telstra - thats all they want.

In the bush they dont care about the fast access to Facebook...they just want a dial tone. A mobile connection that doesn't drop out when you move into another room. The whole marketing strategy is different because the requirements are different.
Its a whole different world.

The One big bang technology approach is flawed for that reason if not many others. I dont have an issue expanding, upgrading the fiber Ring network as it stands, even into new areas - semi rural - the bigger towns like Bathurst, Wagga, Mt Isa where theres a good mix of residential and commercial demographic that will or may need the NBN services.

The cost analysis and business plan, if it even exists in a complete state would drill down at this level.

All we know is the government is attempting a one size fits all, fiber to everywhere approach that just wont fit the budget or time frame. 7% of the population is scattered over 80% of the land mass. And yo want to get fiber to them? Impossible!!! At the advertised cost and time frame to date.

This isnt political bias Chook. This is the reality of it.

I probably understand the benefits of services over fiber more than most here having worked in an industry that has employed the technology in this country for the last 15 years Ive worked in it.

Japan is working on a fabric that will deliver terabytes of data per second, not megabytes. But thats Japan. Different world. Different population. Different industries. Different requirements. IT is an exponential beast. Its rate of development is increasing exponentially every year. Our population wont. Not in this century.

The NB is severe overkill. In its current form and scope it is wasteful, and will end up being an underutilized white elephant that will cost the average bloke too much to establish and too much to run going forward.

The reality is there will be cheaper, wireless solutions that are a better fit for the MAJORITY of the AUSTRALIAN POPULATION's requirements. That 4G stuff is here now. At a fraction of the cost - and adequate for 90% of the population.

This NBN is a waste. A project where the total cost of ownership is deliberately being hidden from the funder of the project - the tax payer. Telcos will love it because its money for jam. But the debt the nation will go into to build it is far far more than the returns on the benefits.

Im not totally against fiber. There are specific needs for it like all the other offerings.

But by God I do know the difference between a needs based plan and a careless excuse to spend billions with no control over the costs and no chance of realising the true benefits.

If the Labor party wants to blow tax revenue be my guest. But for ****s sake spend it on something that is needed, like water, housing, doctors and health services, real health professionals not bullshit internet based blogs, and transport.

How many problems could be solve with "43 billion" let alone the 100 that it will cost us for the half arsed NBN.


Oh and Chook. You can replace a antenna for a hundred bucks. Try re-splicing glass fiber for that.

You need to get a grasp on perspective Chook. Yours is ballooned way out of proportion.

Economies of scale Chook. And you're right about one thing. Labor has ****ed up. Problem is they haven't learnt a thing from their mistakes.

[stephenj]

whos hadley anyway, isnt he that bloke with the thick red neck?

[melon....]

whos hadley anyway, isnt he that bloke with the thick red neck?

Who gives a shit about Hadley....dont listen to him anyway.