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  • Is democracy dying?

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3704...WT.svl=theDrum

    As a tide of popular dissent tides over Western Europe, many of these countries have in some ways abandoned or temporarily suspended democratic governance.

    Take for example, the emergence of Mario Monti to the helm of prime ministership in Italy or Lucas Papademos in Greece. Both technocrats have been charged with enacting a series of harsh and necessary austerity measures to reduce public debt levels and avoiding economic collapse in their respective countries.

    But few have raised the prospect of a lack of accountability so far. Neither Papademos nor Monti were elected by popular mandate by the citizens they represent. In fact under the leadership of George Papandreou, a referendum to decide whether Greece should retain the Euro as its currency was abandoned after opposition within his own cabinet. The elites of Greece had decided in this case that its citizens could not be trusted to make the right 'economic decision' which begs the question, who's democracy?

    The measures enacted were designed ostensibly to calm international bond markets, yet it is clear that they came at a price: the price of abandoning inconvenient and integral elements of democracy. Take Italy's new cabinet for example, there isn't a single representative from Italy's popularly elected parties. Technocrats may just be what Europe needs amidst this financial turmoil, but if they do succeed it will set poor precedent for liberal democracies. Students across Italian campuses are rioting against the proposed measures with signs like "Who voted for you Monti?"

    There is a level of hypocrisy to Western government support for democracy in the Arab world when European leaders bypass the rules and constraints of democracy when times get tough. If abandoning elements of democracy, whether explicitly or implicitly is 'necessary' for economic reasons, why maintain a system that seems to be holding us back? That argument sounds familiar. Oh that's right, the Communist Party in China insists implementing democratic reforms too early could hurt China's economic growth.

    This suggests that the only reasons Western liberal capitalist economies cling on to democracy is because it was previously seen as part and parcel of the package. Yet, China and other countries like Singapore have shown that economic growth and capitalism can be embraced without adopting democratic forms of governance. Could Greece and Italy and perhaps other European countries be moving towards such a path? Unlikely as it may be, the adopting of undemocratic forms of governance and principles sets bad precedent and has the capacity to hurt democratisation movements in the developing world. For now, we can only hope that these technocrats fix their broken economies before it is too late. If they fail, the end of the Euro-zone could be closer and Greeks and Italians will have sacrificed their democratic rights for nothing.

    Nowhere are the inconveniences of democracy more apparent than in the US political system. Partisanship has reached its climax and the legislative agenda is at a gridlock. The Super-committee charged with trying to come to a deal between the two parties has failed. There is little hope of a turnaround in such a broken political system. Fitch, the credit rating agency changed its outlook on long-term US debt from AAA stable to negative. The signs are much more worrying than Europe. At least in the former, ineffective bureaucracies are being toppled; from Italy and Greece's move to embracing technocrats to negotiate their countries through the tough times ahead to Spain's newly-elected government that received a thumping majority to implement tough economic reforms. The US political system is much more complicated anyhow, and a new government could not be formed overnight as in Italy and Greece. As deficits have now passed the $15 trillion mark in the US, austerity measures required to cut public debt will need to be even harsher than when the Simpson-Bowles Commission had proposed reforms to deal with the current fiscal situation. Either way, America's failure to reach a bi-partisan consensus means the only option it has now is to bypass democratic constraints and adopt serious economic reform before its economy collapses.

    Democracy stands in the way of serious reform in many European countries and America, but ask yourself: is abandoning democratic principles and values the only way forward? And what precedent does this set for dealing with future turmoils, be it economic or otherwise?
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

    This bloke makes some very interesting points, especially about accountability and precedents. Europe to take accountability for living beyond their means which is why they are now implementing austerity measures. America is simply corrupt to it's core and imo too far down the track and too stupid to save itself. The failure of the super committee is just the latest example of the intractability within their political system. I totally agree with the author that the danger here is the precedent set by the appointing rather than electing, the bypassing of democracy, in times of trouble.

    A case in point is the Qantas lock that happened here. The Government did not act unilaterally. It allowed the Fair Work process to play out and that imo was a very smart move. Acting unilaterally would have set a precedent for future governments to take similar action in times of industrial trouble and I know how the Libs would love that.

    Democracy is a concept being corrupted imo. It's the wool being pulled over people's eyes to give them comfort and the illusion they have a say in their future when in fact they don't.

    Chook.

  • #2
    German abandoned democracy in the 30's and my great grandparents got turned into lampshades.

    And to clarify America is not, nor has it ever been, a democracy. It is a republic.

    People make that mistake regularly.

    Regarding people's rights, I quote Malcolm McDowell in Lindsay Anderson's movie IF...

    "Any man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."

    That doesn't mean murder, it means any man (or woman) can change the world if given enough power.

    Comment


    • #3
      the most suceesful country in the world is communist china! say no more? must get up the yanks noses?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by stephenj View Post
        the most suceesful country in the world is communist china! say no more? must get up the yanks noses?
        I watched a news item on CNN about they have what's classed as dead cities, with plenty of buildings (apartments and shopping centres) and little to no population.

        All those rumours of China's economic downturn are actually truth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John View Post
          I watched a news item on CNN about they have what's classed as dead cities, with plenty of buildings (apartments and shopping centres) and little to no population.

          All those rumours of China's economic downturn are actually truth.

          Ghost Cities
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPILhiTJv7E

          Housing Bubble starting to crash hard in China

          http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...september.html


          Erdos is an inner-Mongolia city with rich natural resources. However, it's a ghost town with many buildings but few people. Home prices just crashed 62% in a few months.

          Let's take this story starting from the beginning.

          2011-07-11
          China Times reports Housing bubble in Inner Mongolian city bursts
          A property boom in the Chinese city of Ordos started in 2006, but became stagnant this year after banks tightened credit and coal enterprises in the region have consolidated.

          Ordos, a city in central-west Inner Mongolia, has deposits of coal and oil. A recent report by China's Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural Development showed that the GDP per capita of Ordos surpassed that of Hong Kong.

          The number of the rich people with more than 100 million yuan (US$15.468 million) is over 7,000. One out of every 15 people in Ordos has more than 10 million yuan (US$1.546 million). Those who have only one million yuan (US$154,680) are considered poor.

          With so much wealth floating around, housing prices have skyrocketed. According to the newspaper Southern Weekend, this third-tier Chinese city once had real estate prices that averaged 7,000 yuan (US$1,082) per square meter.

          Several buildings sold recently for as high as 13,000 yuan (US$2,010) per square meter. Home prices in Erdos have climbed to over half the price in Beijing, one of China's most expensive property markets with an average of 22,914 yuan (US$3,544) per square meter.

          However since February, home sales have stalled, with only around 10 percent of properties on the market being sold.

          In addition, underground financing is rampant in Ordos. Every housing project has to seek funds from the private sector, which has taken a 40-50% share of the lending market.

          A developer in Ordos said that some in his industry have invested all their money into real estate. Now, with new homes still being built, developers must pay their bills monthly, but since they cannot sell the properties, they are forced to continue to dump in money. Once banks refuse to offer loans, they have to borrow from the private sector, forming a vicious cycle of dependency.

          Kang Bashi, the well-known ghost town in Ordos, represents the epitome of China's housing bubble.

          The town, which cost 17 billion yuan (US$2.629 billion) to build, was originally intended to become a city with a population of around one million, but the number of people actually living there is less than 20,000.

          Chinese media has described the town as "quite barren, with only a few vehicles passing through the multi-lane highway. Some government offices open in the daytime. Pedestrians that appear every so often look like illusive beings, dragging their heavy feet along, like a lone survivor after a catastrophic event from the movies."
          2011-09-29
          China Loan Shark Market Crashes; Scores of Chinese Business Owners Unable to Pay Black Market Loans Commit Suicide or Disappear
          Here is an interesting email from reader "Kevin" regarding the crashing loan-shark market in China.

          Hello Mish

          I am a long time reader and want to bring to your attention on a new development in China: private business owners are disappearing or jumping off buildings because they can no longer pay off black market shark loans.

          According to national new paper Economics Information (part of state media Xinhua), on 9/22, Hu Fulin, owner of the biggest eyeglass manufacture of the city of Wenzhou disappeared, leaving behind 2 billion RMB debt.

          On 9/25, 3 more business owners in Wenzhou disappeared (owners of copper, steel and shoe manufacture).

          On 9/27, owner of "Zhengdeli", a shoe manufacture jumped off of a 22 story building and killed himself.

          ....
          2011-11-24
          China Financial Daily reports Erdos "Ghost Town" property market crash, ten thousand yuan housing price drop by 70%
          Living in the edge of the Ordos storm , Ordos was beset with a different version of real estate lending Wenzhou panic . For example, local ” Jinxin Han Lin Yuan ” project , its second-hand house prices are around 10,000 yuan , while the market price now only is 3750 yuan.
          The example given is a 62.5% decline but some properties may have fallen 70%. Either way, that is one hell of a price decline since September.

          Mike "Mish" Shedlock
          http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com
          Last edited by rcptn; 12-01-2011, 10:53 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            So I was like right and stuff. Cool.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by stephenj View Post
              the most suceesful country in the world is communist china! say no more? must get up the yanks noses?
              Success is measured in many ways and many of those ways including freedom do not have China at the top of the list.
              I think we are a pretty good example of democracy going down the toilet.

              BTW John I like the Artie pic
              The Internet is a place for posting silly things
              Try and be serious and you will look stupid
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kingbilly View Post
                Success is measured in many ways and many of those ways including freedom do not have China at the top of the list.
                I think we are a pretty good example of democracy going down the toilet.

                BTW John I like the Artie pic

                Two things.

                1. The democracy in this country is alive and well. The fact that, in my opinion, we have a rotten government at the moment is just the result of deals and craven politics. While the image and thought of America from shows like West Wing and Frasier has clouded my judgment somewhat, I know that America is more like the America of the Shield and the Wire so I know I'd rather live here in Australia than anywhere else.

                2. K.B., I honestly picked that because I couldn't find a Scanlens card of Artie this morning.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Name one country on this vile planet that listens to its people at all ? There never has been such a thing as a democracy anywhere, ever.
                  Those who think differently are either totally deluded or totally brainwashed with their party of choice's pathetic dribble.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OVP View Post
                    Name one country on this vile planet that listens to its people at all ? There never has been such a thing as a democracy anywhere, ever.
                    Those who think differently are either totally deluded or totally brainwashed with their party of choice's pathetic dribble.
                    OVP, there are a few countries where the masses can pretend they have democracy better than others

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OVP View Post
                      Name one country on this vile planet that listens to its people at all ? There never has been such a thing as a democracy anywhere, ever.
                      Those who think differently are either totally deluded or totally brainwashed with their party of choice's pathetic dribble.
                      Okay, OVP has clearly crossed over into the realms of being Ra's Al Ghul.



                      Still and all, he's got a very, very hot daughter in Talia.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...205-1ofdg.html

                        Self-interest rules as US circus makes mockery of democracy

                        Go anywhere in the world these days and the voice of the US is heard - urging, cajoling or sanctioning in the name of freedom and human rights.

                        It might be a big gun, like Hillary Clinton in Burma, or a tut-tutting editorial in The Washington Post. But Libyans and Egyptians, Iranians and Syrians all get the Washington low-down on the essentials of democracy.

                        Funny then, that back home American politicians are engaging in a once-in-a-decade circus that is contemptuous of the democratic fundamentals - the rorting of electoral boundaries.

                        Advertisement: Story continues below In much of the US, it is the politicians who get to draw lines on maps - not independent judicial or quasi-judicial bodies such as those entrusted with this task in Australia and elsewhere in the developed world.

                        Instead of voters choosing their congressmen, this is when members of Congress choose their voters. In a few states, sitting members have actually retained the services of much-maligned lobbyists to push their bids for electoral survival and party chiefs have multimillion-dollar budgets for challenges in more than a dozen states.

                        In states that account for slightly more than half of the 435 electoral districts in Congress, the political party in power at the state level has exclusive control of the process. After the Republican tsunami in last year's midterm elections, that means Republicans call the shots on the shape of 202 districts ahead of an election next year, and the Democrats in just 47 districts.

                        But weep for voters, not the Democrats. When the Democrats have been up in the polls, they have wielded the scalpel with the same savage self-interest that drives this year's Republican-controlled redistricting committees.

                        The result is an absurd, partisan twisting and bending of electoral boundaries, to shore up sitting colleagues and, at the same time, to expose congressmen from the other side to defeat.

                        Or, in the case of Illinois' fourth district, pictured, what one pundit describes as a ''gerrymandered gerrymander'', an effort to create a single Hispanic electorate to dilute the influence of a rapidly expanding community in Chicago's other districts.

                        The gerrymandering is so effective that in many districts the only meaningful election is the parties' primary polls to select candidates.

                        In state elections in Virginia last month, the boundary rigging was so tight that Republican and Democratic candidates faced off in just 27 of 100 districts - and in all but five races, the winning margin was around 10 per cent. A 27 per cent turnout seemed to confirm voters saw the pointlessness of it all.

                        Blaming computer-assisted gerrymandering for robbing the poll of any semblance of a contest, The Washington Post editorialised: ''The pols picked their voters and drew their maps based on maximum self-interest … leaving manipulated voters to cast all but meaningless ballots in what amounted to cartographically rigged elections.''

                        In neighbouring Maryland, the Democratic Governor, Martin O'Malley, has reshaped the voting map to ensure a sizeable chunk of his party's supporters in the Washington suburbs is in each of the state's eight congressional districts - requiring one district to snake, sausage-like, for more than 300 kilometres to pick up the African American, Asian and Hispanic voters whom the governor hopes will make life uncomfortable for a particular sitting Republican opponent.

                        In North Carolina, where the Republicans last year won control of both state houses for the first time in more than a century, they conjured up new boundaries that are expected to deliver them 10 out of 13 congressional districts, in a state reckoned to be evenly split in its support for the two parties.

                        Bent on winning three of four new districts in Texas, the Republican establishment bent the boundaries so bizarrely in their own favour that a panel of judges has been appointed to review their pencil-work, a process by which the Democrats hope to pick up those vital new seats. These state-by-state boundary wars are vital given that next year, the Democrats have to win 25 new seats to regain a majority in the House - in a contest in which perhaps just 20 districts will be seriously in play.

                        It was famously suggested that ''even a roomful of chimpanzees with crayons'' would do a fairer redistribution than either side of US politics.

                        But this year, California opted for something different - appointing a non-partisan Citizens Redistricting Commission, which has brought sanity to the boundaries with a map that is likely to give the Democrats 37 of 53 federal seats, up on their current hold in 33 districts.

                        By comparison, the gerrymander was so tight in 2004 that not a single California seat changed hands in a combined 153 federal and state electoral contests.

                        After the last census, in 2000, Texas became a redistricting bloodbath as Republicans reconfigured what had been a Democrat gerrymander. This year, political veins are being slashed in Illinois in what some observers tout as the Democrats' revenge for what happened in Texas. Illinois voters elected 11 Republicans and eight Democrats last year but after the elimination of one seat for population adjustment, the new Democrat-drawn boundaries for the state are expected to return a dozen Democrats and half as many Republicans.

                        For all the redistricting angst in such a litigious country, American courts have been curiously indifferent - the US Supreme Court reportedly has heard only two cases claiming politically-motivated redistricting and in each the bench ruled inconsequentially.

                        Justin Levitt of the Loyola Law School in Los Angeles confines himself to the refined tones that we expect from academia in his analysis of a system he describes as unique among industrialised democracies in how it wires such an inherent conflict of interest into the heart of the democratic process.

                        But in an email exchange, Professor Levitt underscored the political imperative by drawing my attention to the language of a Democrat redistricting committee chairman in Illinois in 2001, when American politicians last gouged the political landscape.

                        According to court evidence, the Democrat warned one of his committee colleagues: ''We're going to shove [the redrawn map] up your f---ing ass and you're going to like it. And I'll f--- any Republican I can.''
                        __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

                        The corruption of the American political system continues anabated.

                        Why we continue to look to this country as an inspiration escapes me.

                        Chook.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lyndon Johnson was a master of the Gerrymander. He acquired the nickname "Landslide Lyndon" after his 1949 Senate race when there were entire cemeteries that voted for him.

                          Jack Kennedy used the mob in Chicago to do pretty much the same thing in 1960.

                          And then there's Joh Bjieke-Petersen's creative electoral boundaries, some of which cut through houses.

                          And I reiterate, America is NOT a democracy, it's a Republic. Like Rome.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John View Post
                            Lyndon Johnson was a master of the Gerrymander. He acquired the nickname "Landslide Lyndon" after his 1949 Senate race when there were entire cemeteries that voted for him.

                            Jack Kennedy used the mob in Chicago to do pretty much the same thing in 1960.

                            And then there's Joh Bjieke-Petersen's creative electoral boundaries, some of which cut through houses.

                            And I reiterate, America is NOT a democracy, it's a Republic. Like Rome.
                            I think I understand what you mean by that statement and it's reference to a republic. but America has always considered itself a "democracy" based purely on the way it permits a person to vote. Although it's far closer to being an oligarchy than a republic imo.

                            Chook.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Demos - From the people

                              Republic - A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president.

                              Democracy - A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

                              The difference is that a democracy can be changed by the removal of one person being either fired or replaced in an election, a republic means that the president can technically become a dictator if he convinces enough of the legislature to pass the dissolution law.

                              Comparing America to Australia.

                              In America people blame Obama for the dire state of the economy.

                              In Australia people blame Julia Gillard for selling her soul for power, Wayne Swan for being an even worse treasurer than John Kerin and Penny Wong for having absolutely no idea about finances.

                              That's why there's never been a federal political assassination in Australia, the blame is shared.

                              Presidents set laws, with advisers, therefore they singularly take the blame.

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