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Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

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  • Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

    When the Soviet system was abandoned in the early 90s, Gorbachev and later Yeltsin were assured after negotiations on Berlin that NATO (the US led anti Russian containment alliance in western Europe) would not advance to the Russia's borders. The fact that they might be concerned about that would be fair enough wouldn't you think since Russia itself was not allowed to join NATO? The agreements made with Bush senior and later Clinton were reneged on such was the sense of triumphalism that infected western security services.

    In 2014 there was a civil war in the Ukraine which, like Wales or Northern Ireland, was not really a "nation" in the usual sense of the concept. It was, and had been for centuries past, part of a union led by Russia just as England leads its union with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The civil war led to a right wing coup against Ukraine's pro Russian government and extremist right wing militias overran huge Russian speaking areas within the country causing the deaths of conservatively 14000 people. Two enclaves in the south east held out however and in 2015 The Minsk Agreement designated Donetsk and Lugansk, both on the Russian border, as autonomous and this arrangement was ratified by the UN Security Council. The Ukraine government then reneged on the Minsk Agreement (Uncle Sam again no doubt).

    It is in this region that Russian troops are gathering at the border as it is clear that the Right Wing militias (whose origins stretch back to Nazi collaboration during WW2) are determined to annex them. That is the situation presently. They are not there to Invade the Ukraine as our media would have it.

    Here in Oz our MSM including the ABC give us no context whatsoever. Media outlets are mere stenographers for British and US propaganda. Why are Germany, Italy, Scandinavia and France not involving themselves in anything like the purposely hysterical reaction of the Anglosphere?

    The real, independent view of the situation can be easily found on the Internet and a good start might be Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat and also a former foreign correspondent for The Australian.

  • #2
    I'll start with the basics. Firstly, the country, the nation, that is Ukraine is called simply Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." Secondly, the country, the nation, that is Ukraine existed before russia (refer to the history books for Kyvan Rus). Thirdly, Ukraine has its own language, its own culture, its own laws, its own flag, and its own people (ethnic composition), all of which are different to russia/russians.

    You write that 2014 Ukraine "was not really a "nation" in the usual sense …" which is wrong, and I respectfully ask if you know and have spoken to a Ukrainian who lives here or in Ukraine about such things? If you have, do they agree with both this and your comparison to Wales et al? If they do, I suspect they are probably russians living in Donetsk and Luhansk or simply ignorant russians. I am dismayed, but not surprised, that you would characterise Ukraine in the year 2014 as anything other than a fully-fledged country/nation in its own right. Ukraine regained its independence from the soviet union in August 1991.

    You speak of "British and US propaganda" without also mentioning russian propaganda about Ukraine. You speak of the Minsk Agreement but don't mention the Budapest Memorandum. You also don't mention the annexation of Crimea.

    In your misleading and nefarious statement "... extremist right wing militias overran huge Russian speaking areas within the country causing the deaths of conservatively 14000 people …" you subtly imply the 14,000 people are all russian sympathisers killed by Ukrainian militias, but that number includes all of the people from both sides that have died in the fighting. Some further points about this troublesome statement:
    • Almost all Ukrainians speak both Ukrainian and russian (a remnant of russians as soviets trying to wipe Ukraine and its culture off the map).
    • For leftists such as you, there are no moderates on the right, only extremists. You and I both know there are degrees between the centre and the extremes, but the right generally calls out its extremists, the left encourages/celebrates/turns a blind eye to theirs.
    • You don't seem to care whatsoever about context (except when it comes to the MSM in Oz) when it comes to Ukraine, its history, and the effect on Ukrainians. This proclivity is most evident in your context-devoid statement "... Right Wing militias (whose origins stretch back to Nazi collaboration during WW2) ..."
    The way you framed your entire post confirms to me just how far left of centre you sit. As you seem to be so enamoured of socialism/communism/Marxism, why don't you move to russia, north korea, or cuba and be amongst "your people" rather than living (I assume) in Australia? Some people call that hyposcrisy or lacking principles.

    Why do you feel the need to mislead at best, or lie at worst? Are your views not strong enough to stand on their own? There's more I could write in response to your misleading post, but I've already wasted enough time.

    Slava Ukraini.
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

    Thomas Jefferson

    Comment


    • #3
      Your ordinary Welshman or Scotsman would also claim to to belong to separate nations but they don't. Their "areas" have no Constitutions, no embassies and their allegiance is to a British monarch. They do have their own language though and, arguably, distinct cultures. Where's the difference?

      The Ukraine is not homogeneous as far as its population is concerned, it is ethnically diverse with minorities which have been there for centuries. The majority is Ukrainian and the Fascist elements within it are now on an ethnic cleansing mission. The collaboration with the German invaders and the subsequent persecution of Jews is well documented. For instance, soon after the 2014 US assisted overthrow of a democratically elected government, an official whitewash of wartime collaborators was begun. The Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the associated UPA, both involved in horrendous wartime atrocities against Jews, were declared to be national heroes. On January1 each year the government sponsors a torchlight march in honour of the notorious anti Semite and wartime Nazi collaborator, Stepan Bandera - this is the character of the current Ukraine government - Right Wing extremists whom the US has given billions of dollars in military aid. Should we not be told this? Might put a different complexion on things in our electorate.

      In 2014 after the US inspired coup, Russia hastened to annex the Crimea, a vital strategic area coverted by the US but ceded to the Ukraine in happier times - well they would annex it wouldn't they?

      That dumb old trope "go back to Russia" don't cut it anymore Lone Ranger. In modern parlance it's a Cancel culture thing. The Australian people need to be given the full context - just whom are we supporting here? Fat chance of that.

      P.S. I was speaking historically (pre 1991) in my comparing Ukraine to Wales etc. Its independence is only newly won and the problem for Russia is that since independence Right Wing nationalists in the west of the country (coincidentally the region where Ukrainian is predominantly spoken, otherwise the Lingua Franca is Russian) have asserted themselves in government. This western area once part of the Austro-Hungarian empire is historically the home of anti Semitism in the country.
      Last edited by Paddo Colt 61; 02-01-2022, 09:52 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TheLoneRooster View Post
        I'll start with the basics. Firstly, the country, the nation, that is Ukraine is called simply Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." Secondly, the country, the nation, that is Ukraine existed before russia (refer to the history books for Kyvan Rus). Thirdly, Ukraine has its own language, its own culture, its own laws, its own flag, and its own people (ethnic composition), all of which are different to russia/russians.

        You write that 2014 Ukraine "was not really a "nation" in the usual sense …" which is wrong, and I respectfully ask if you know and have spoken to a Ukrainian who lives here or in Ukraine about such things? If you have, do they agree with both this and your comparison to Wales et al? If they do, I suspect they are probably russians living in Donetsk and Luhansk or simply ignorant russians. I am dismayed, but not surprised, that you would characterise Ukraine in the year 2014 as anything other than a fully-fledged country/nation in its own right. Ukraine regained its independence from the soviet union in August 1991.

        You speak of "British and US propaganda" without also mentioning russian propaganda about Ukraine. You speak of the Minsk Agreement but don't mention the Budapest Memorandum. You also don't mention the annexation of Crimea.

        In your misleading and nefarious statement "... extremist right wing militias overran huge Russian speaking areas within the country causing the deaths of conservatively 14000 people …" you subtly imply the 14,000 people are all russian sympathisers killed by Ukrainian militias, but that number includes all of the people from both sides that have died in the fighting. Some further points about this troublesome statement:
        • Almost all Ukrainians speak both Ukrainian and russian (a remnant of russians as soviets trying to wipe Ukraine and its culture off the map).
        • For leftists such as you, there are no moderates on the right, only extremists. You and I both know there are degrees between the centre and the extremes, but the right generally calls out its extremists, the left encourages/celebrates/turns a blind eye to theirs.
        • You don't seem to care whatsoever about context (except when it comes to the MSM in Oz) when it comes to Ukraine, its history, and the effect on Ukrainians. This proclivity is most evident in your context-devoid statement "... Right Wing militias (whose origins stretch back to Nazi collaboration during WW2) ..."
        The way you framed your entire post confirms to me just how far left of centre you sit. As you seem to be so enamoured of socialism/communism/Marxism, why don't you move to russia, north korea, or cuba and be amongst "your people" rather than living (I assume) in Australia? Some people call that hyposcrisy or lacking principles.

        Why do you feel the need to mislead at best, or lie at worst? Are your views not strong enough to stand on their own? There's more I could write in response to your misleading post, but I've already wasted enough time.

        Slava Ukraini.
        Haha....brilliant TLR.

        Mostly we leave the extremist troll to 'engage' in his own little world without interacting, but it's heart-warming to see a smackdown with wit n wisdom that the smacked down one himself so lacketh.
        #We Stand with ourJewish community#

        Comment


        • #5
          colt, if you had to pick between stalin and hitler, which would you choose? That is the choice Ukrainians had to make during WW2.

          You allude to the pogroms in Ukraine, but you don't allude to the Holodomor. You slander Bandera, but I'm sure you give stalin a pass. No surprises there, you are after all, a faithful parrot of russian lies.

          This will be my final reply to you colt, as I'm gong to take the advice of JFC and not interact with you further. You are a fine example of the demoralisation of the West articulated by Yuri Bezmenov.
          "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

          Thomas Jefferson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jacks Fur Coat View Post

            Haha....brilliant TLR.

            Mostly we leave the extremist troll to 'engage' in his own little world without interacting, but it's heart-warming to see a smackdown with wit n wisdom that the smacked down one himself so lacketh.
            Thank you JFC.
            "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

            Thomas Jefferson

            Comment


            • #7
              Two deep thinkers talking to one another yo. Jaxie weighs in with not an atom of knowledge on the subject apart from what he's gleaned from Sky News - "smackdown"...."wit and widom".....LOL.

              I simply make the suggestion that ordinary Australians should look for alternative perspectives other than the MSM on such serious matters and I provided a pretty objective source, an ex diplomat from Oz Foreign Affairs which is not usually associated with Left extremism I'm sure you'll agree.

              I did, however, omit an important issue. The latest version of Fascist extremism in the Ukraine , an organisation called Centuria has become prominent in the Ukrainian military (no doubt with American knowledge and approval)). Members of this group have been photographed in uniform giving the Nazi salute.

              Slandering Stepan Bandera? I don't think so unless numerous Jewish organisations including The Simon Wiesenthal Centre have named him as a major player in the Holocaust in the East are seriously wrong. When he was named a Hero of the Ukraine even the European parliament condemned the award. So who's lying them or the Right wing government of Ukraine?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheLoneRooster View Post
                colt, if you had to pick between stalin and hitler, which would you choose? That is the choice Ukrainians had to make during WW2.

                You allude to the pogroms in Ukraine, but you don't allude to the Holodomor. You slander Bandera, but I'm sure you give stalin a pass. No surprises there, you are after all, a faithful parrot of russian lies.

                This will be my final reply to you colt, as I'm gong to take the advice of JFC and not interact with you further. You are a fine example of the demoralisation of the West articulated by Yuri Bezmenov.
                Yes he leaves out the forced starvation orchestrated by various Stalin decrees - collectivize agriculture for instance

                https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor

                Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberators from Stalin but the Germans weren't into liberating anyone only interested in the land of those countries they conquered - "lebensraum" or living space and repopulating these lands with Germanic Colonists and what was left of the local people as many would be deported/exterminated or enslaved would then be used as forced labour for these Germanic Colonists and Germany in whatever capacity they chose to use them in - manufacturing/agriculture/construction etc etc etc

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine

                It has to be noted that in the Soviet Union Russian was the official language that all had to learn and speak and write fluently. Once someone finished their college/university/military service etc they were sent to anywhere in the Soviet Union where their services and skills were required.

                Of course when the Soviet Union collapsed the relevant countries reinstated their own language as the official language - I know several Doctors who where working in Estonia/Latvia/Kazakhstan and other former Soviet republics who could no longer work as a Doctor in those countries as they did not speak the Language of those countries -only Russian.



                Last edited by King Salvo; 02-03-2022, 03:23 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Putin wants one of two things -Ukraine becomes part of Russia or Controlled by Russia - Using NATO is a smokescreen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Most of the Ukraine population speak Russian, That's what Lingua Franca means. In the west of the country the situation, the most Nativist, the situation is different. The Ultra Right is sworn to impose the Ukrainian langue (more or less a Russian dialect on the rest.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ask Hunter Biden.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Big Dog View Post
                        Ask Hunter Biden.
                        Yes all those allegations against him made by Murdochs New York Post and Donald Trump leading up to the 2020 election. Of course it amounted to absolutely nothing as there was zero proof.

                        Incidentally have you been keeping up with the deaths in Australia from the covid-19 vaccines on the governments TGA website? By your counting by now there would be more deaths because of the vaccine than there is from Covid itself!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=King Salvo: Putin wants one of two things -Ukraine becomes part of Russia or Controlled by Russia - Using NATO is a smokescreen.

                          Unbefitting comment from one one usually far more thoughtful King. Russia wants national security from an historically hostile alliance led by the US. How is that different from the security Ukraine claims to want? With US help in 2014, ultra nationalists from western Ukraine stormed the parliament and the democratically elected government was forced to flee for their lives. That alone would give rise to alarm in Russia which promptly annexed the Crimea to obviate any future existential threat.

                          How would the US react if Russia were now to base missile sites in places friendly to it - Cuba, Venezuela, Iran?

                          Russia's side of the story can be dismissed (as it is) only if you believe in American exceptionalism - its divine right and its inherent righteousness - and only a blind fool could believe that. Just look at the place!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Only in Russia.
                            https://twitter.com/i/status/1491346870102560771

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              She's true to a Russian tradition. During the Great Patriotic War there were female air crews and fighting infantry.

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