Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Paddo Colt 61]

As I say about Cognitive Dissonance, one narrative has been around so long and so ubiquitous and all pervasive given its media dominance that many, even the very intelligent, buy into it deeply. Of course background helps a lot to just ignore inconvenient evidence to the contrary - a wealthy background with a private school education helps (oh and isn't it great that that Gonski stuff has now been binned by the Libs and the big private funding is back). A new McMansion and SUV courtesy of the cash-a- rolla GST often salves the Tradies' minds (first stop the footy pages and Ray Hadley blaring on site). The religious know a devil when brainwashed about one but not, apparently, when they see one in action. The "Great Satan" I mean

Sorry that you're tired of it all -Ism. I would have thought that the legal profession might be indefatigable in determining truth but Cog Dis, there you go. For my part, as a former educator, I am happy to see so many people visiting this underused forum and reading the discussion without comment. It tells me that those members are thinking and, hopefully revisiting the debate. For that alone I thank you and King and Jaxie and particularly MR for keeping discussion going. My regret is that 'ol 08 has blocked out, he woulda loved it.

[King Salvo]

Done a bit of crash researn King - all of it in the wrong places? We can read most of that half truth in out unreliable MSM.

1990 was a time of negotiation with the west. Gorby wouldn't have made his final call and then protested _"Oh by the way, yez wouldn't be moving NATO East would you? Ridiculous!

The dismantling of the Soviet Union and especially the re Unification of Germany was a momentous diplomatic concession for Russia. Just 30 years previously Germany had all but destroyed the joint and left 30 million dead (some say up to 50 million). Preventing a repeat of that was Russias post war priority - what Churchill dubbed the "Iron Curtain" (that's Churchill, the aristocrat - he who opposed the dismantling of Empire, Were those Empire countries denied "freedom"? No talk of "Iron Curtain" there). For Russia, a reunited Germany was an existential threat. Countries like Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia- Bulgaria had joined Germany in the catastrophic invasion. Right wing elements that were suppressed post war came, predictably, back to life.

NATO, its aggressive anti communist role now redundant in 1971 looked for new threats in the east were there were none but set about dismantling the last Communist standing - Serbia. Previously a mate of the US because of its independence in the Stalin years, it was now dispensable and NATO invaded to protect an Albanian minority which had become a majority in parts of Kosovo. Sound familiar? Has Russia not done similarly? Get real King, re read my post on Cognitive Dissonance.

Ism. Some in Vietnam South might have lost everything but the North lost millions against a technically superior invader. It was a racist war in which your heroes were on the side of the invader. Their leaders and, of course, their unfortunate sheeple had also sided with the Colonial French (under whom thy prospered (well some of them) and later with the Japanese invaders. They were on the wrong side of history Ism. Spare us the tears.

Jaxie - still no idea, not worth a response. Sky has repeated that stuff so often that you know it by heart.

Poland and Czechoslovakia joined the Germans in the invasion of Russia???? - Not sure where you got that from

mmm Poland was jointly invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939 under the German and Soviet Union non - aggression pact- Poland was split in half.

Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Germans in 1939 - earlier the Munich agreement (1938) permitted Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland, in western Czechoslovakia despite Czechoslovakia not even being invited to the meeting or asked for their opinion.- The old Peace in our time

The Soviet Union Invaded Finland in 1939 as well and Hungary in 1956 , Czechoslovakia in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979

And yes the Iron Curtain was correct "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent.

When the Soviet Union collapsed all those countries couldn't wait to be independent and away for Russia Control from Moscow and the Moscow backed Puppet Governments they installed - Romania - Nicolae Ceaușescu for instance- mmm not forgetting the countless Gulags they had as well. - Russia still has them

Ukraine was among those who voted for independence that year – around 84% of eligible voters turned out for an independence referendum, with 90% of those who took part voting for the country to become an independent nation.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Thousands of Czechs fought in the Wehrmacht and even in SS battalions recruited in all Eastern occupied countries. Poland was occupied but from 1917 on, its anti Soviet governments probed and threatened the Russian border. It had a long history of taking advantage. Hence the Katyn Wood and the holdback during the Warsaw uprising. Ukrainian SS and fascists conducted a mini holocaust in Ukraine and Russia.

You keep using that Chamberlain pic possibly to remind people about the "folly" of appeasement but there is much Historical revision which holds that England was implicitly encouraging the hysterically anti bolshevik Hitler to move East but balked when Poland (with which there was a treaty) was invaded, England was outsmarted by the "inconceivable" Nazi-Soviet Pact. Even then there was a long period of phoney war with the hope that Germany would flout the agreement with Russia as it eventually did. He wasn't a weak appeaser, he was a devious minor aristocrat as was his more self promoting successor who failed to open a second front when the Soviet Union was on the ropes. The "Allies" launched an air war we often hear. According to Albert Speer (Hitler's Minister for Munitions) war production was at its highest at the height of the bombing campaign. It was a very sore point in bleeding Russia.

"Collapsed" is a weasel description - "dismantled" is more appropriate, Dismantled after years of Cold War arms race bled the Russian economy. The US in its determination to preserve the Capitalist paradigm has never permitted any Communist or even Socialist government system to succeed or fail on their own merits.

Re Czech, I have discussed Soviet strategy in Eastern Europe after Russia virtually won the war and the US reinstated Nazis in German officialdom and administration.

The Soviet was invited into Afghanistan after its democratically elected socialist government was threatened by the tribal oligarchs who were then supported by Uncle Sam until they blasted the twin towers away. If ya can't trust a mate.......

[Paddo Colt 61]

Maybe I shouldn't have done the spliff before I sat down. Anyway the die is cast and it doesn't matter what anyone thought before.

Putin looked serious the other night when he warned media that anybody who wanted to get involved would face a situation the like of which they'd never known. Such is his determination that Russia be heard and respected and, really. you gotta concede his concerns given the fact that he's been given the run around -
"What are these new missile bases in Poland and Latvia all about?" - "Ah doan worry they're not aimed at you" --Oh really?
Anyway he was pretty much referring to nuclear activity and that is chilling for us all and the first reaction is to condemn him for that in highly emotional fashions but given the situation that would be counter productive. FFS, reason needs to prevail now - thank Christ Trump's not around any more - there needs to be a concession or two from the so far stonewalling US and NATO. Putin is so determined that Russia not be ignored, that he may not be bluffing - What? We're going to chance it? Another WMD scenario? This time aimed at someone who actually HAS nuclear weapons. He's come through all the turmoil since the nineties, a former Rector at St Petersburg university, former KGB officer with years of experience of power chichannery has outwitted corruption and foreign interference in Chechnya and Georgia, pulled the joint together and has been demonised by the West. He's by any measure a super patriotic person and that can be a bad thing.

My intention is not to join any pile on. I totally see Putin's concerns, frustrations and disgust but the stakes might be now too high for us to join cheer squads. This has to be worked on diplomatically. Our existence may be in the hands of forces that are way beyond our influence - we are "the sheeple" when all's said and done and we should not fall in with any ongoing emotional rev up.

[Random Rooster]

Yes ask Alexei Navalny how patriotic Putin is. At least Alexei is (luckily) around to ask......every other opponent of Putins has had plenty of "bad luck" and met with an unfortunate death. I hope the Russian protesters against the invasion that have been taken away by state police also dont meet with "bad luck"

Paddo after reading your posts its become obvious to me that Putin is actually the victim! Russias UN ambassador Vasily Nebenzya must be telling the truth when declaring Ukraine
persecuted citizens for speaking Russian....and Ukraine was being run by neo Nazis who were practising ethnic cleansing. I think he also mentioned that the Roosters and Rabbitohs have intentions of merging.....and they wont let that happen!

[ism22]

Maybe I shouldn't have done the spliff before I sat down. Anyway the die is cast and it doesn't matter what anyone thought before.

The only thing that doesn't matter is your ridiculous opinions as the invasion has proven them totally wrong (despite your ability to keep ranting as if none of this is happening & the Ukraine deserves it).

Give it a rest buddy.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Have you actually been reading what I've said -ism? I've pointed out that there's more than one side to all this and most of what I've said comes from former Australian diplomats and scholars on the Net.
By the looks, you would probably have posted similarly at the Vietnam invasion, Afghanistan, Iraq and, boy, I bet 9/11 got you into a lather., What? You're prepared to cheer on a nuclear war?

[mightyrooster]

What matters is Putin is dangerous. He has gripes with the West and whether you or I, or anyone agrees or disagrees with the validity of those gripes is irrelevant. For Putin they are real.
He is a nationalist who loves his country.
He thinks he's Tsar Vlad the Great.
He wants to make Russia great again amd wants the West to know it.
He also has narcissistic tendencies and won't let anyone stand in his way, even within his own country.

We've been through this before during the two World Wars. No, fortunately I'm not that old to remember it all, but I've done all the reading. The first World War was the result of imperialism and nationalism on several fronts. The rise of Hitler's Germany was the result of Hitler feeling aggrieved at the Treaty of Versailles that came after that war. Yes that's a very basic summation of it all but I don't have the time or inclination to write an entire history essay.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Apart from your evidence free but emotional profiling of Putin MR, might it not be fair to assume that his concern is for his nation's security given what has been discussed here and, in fact, what has happened - missile bases on Russia's Western borders and a past refusal to allow Russia to join NATO. What did they do FFS? The Cold War is no longer.

Stan Grant, a lightweight mouthpiece for the warmongering ASPI think tank funded by the US and various arms manufacturing corporations (all documented on the Net), ejected a young questioner from the Q&A audience last night. The questioner merely raised counter and moral equivalence issues that we have discussed on this thread. The ABC needs to be ashamed at that blatant cancel culture gesture. A stifling of debate and a total rejection of the possibility of there being a different narrative that needs to be considered pretty urgently at this point.

[Random Rooster]

Apart from your evidence free but emotional profiling of Putin MR, might it not be fair to assume that his concern is for his nation's security given what has been discussed here and, in fact, what has happened - missile bases on Russia's Western borders and a past refusal to allow Russia to join NATO. What did they do FFS? The Cold War is no longer.

Yes Putin at one stage expressed interest in joining NATO but did not want to have to go through the usual application process and stand in line “with a lot of countries that don’t matter”.

Putin wanted to be a equal partner yet did not want to jump through the hoops (Membership Action Plan) that applied to all countries that aspired to join NATO .....he didn't feel the need to submit individual annual national programmes on their preparations for possible future membership.....that cover political, economic, defence, resource, security and legal aspects.

Russia did sign up to the Russia–Nato Council in 2002, established as a means to improve dialogue, but that was canned when they invaded Crimea in 2014.

Paddo i'm not sure where you're going with the missile bases in the ex Soviet nations. Every country has the right to prepare to defend themselves. That includes the likes of Latvia,Lithuania, Estonia etc. Do you really think that any of these countries were preparing these military bases to attack a nuclear capable Russia ? Where did you think they should aim these missiles....the natural foe or its fellow NATO members? Or do you want them to have no military bases?

I dont think Putin has counted on such a united Europe. The line has been drawn in the sand re invading NATO countries- Russia's invasion of Ukraine may be clumsy but the NATO countries won't be fooled by that and underestimate them. Sweden & Finland have joined the sanctions- bloody hell he even managed to piss off Switzerland that has been neutral for 200 years.

Once he takes Ukraine then what? He has attacked civilian areas and has caused mass evacuations. Russians will never be accepted in Ukraine. What's left behind is lots of young children who will soon be men and women-and they will have memories of losses and wanting revenge. Russia will soon say "mission accomplished" when they take Kiev but really the battle has just begun- one they will have to fight long term and with no money.

[mightyrooster]

Apart from your evidence free but emotional profiling of Putin MR, might it not be fair to assume that his concern is for his nation's security given what has been discussed here and, in fact, what has happened - missile bases on Russia's Western borders and a past refusal to allow Russia to join NATO. What did they do FFS? The Cold War is no longer.

Stan Grant, a lightweight mouthpiece for the warmongering ASPI think tank funded by the US and various arms manufacturing corporations (all documented on the Net), ejected a young questioner from the Q&A audience last night. The questioner merely raised counter and moral equivalence issues that we have discussed on this thread. The ABC needs to be ashamed at that blatant cancel culture gesture. A stifling of debate and a total rejection of the possibility of there being a different narrative that needs to be considered pretty urgently at this point.

Yes you're right my profiling of Putin was evidence free. I dispute the emotional part as I just call it as I see it from his words and actions.

My issue is I really don't know where we are supposed to go from here. What do you want the West to do?

[Paddo Colt 61]

Doesn't matter want I want I'm one of the Sheeple on this one. The West should stop being disingenuous about Russian concerns regarding their security. That's a fantasy!

You seem to have wiped from your mind that just 78 years ago Russia was pretty much left in ruin. And it wasn't the first time. In 1919 Allied forces joined in with the counter revolutionary White Army to prolong the civil war. Russia has a living memory not just a vague fear. Get over it - is that your attitude? Context is fundamental.

Anyway , it doesn't matter who did what to whom and what's at the root of it all now. Reality is here. Who would know what the war aims are or even how the invasion will resolve the main issue - Ukraine neutrality re NATO I would imagine but they don't consult me.

War is obviously nightmarish but I don't remember seeing anywhere near the human misery footage when Iraq was invaded and on a pretext at that. Nor do I remember any widespread condemnation of what was happening at the time. I do remember a US gunship obliterating a wedding party though and I did see a naked and arrogant swagger which I saw earlier in Vietnam (another invasion). The real USA. Haven't been a fan since.

You have a selective view MR, conventional and cherry picking, pretty much an ABC perspective. Fine, most people share it, but I'm amazed that demonisation has got to the point where the Russian side of the argument is arrogantly and routinely totally ignored. This is what we see in times of tension. Truth is always the first casualty. The masses get emotional and the consequences are not much thought about.

[Random Rooster]

You seem to have wiped from your mind that just 78 years ago Russia was pretty much left in ruin. And it wasn't the first time. In 1919 Allied forces joined in with the counter revolutionary White Army to prolong the civil war. Russia has a living memory not just a vague fear. Get over it - is that your attitude? Context is fundamental.

When World War II started,the Soviet Union was effectively an ally of Nazi Germany......maybe Poland has a "living memory" of that?

Should Japan be weary of the USA? Should the world be worried that Germany has now committed to spending tens of billions into beefing up its military ?

The only lesson that should be remembered from those wars is "never again"

War is obviously nightmarish but I don't remember seeing anywhere near the human misery footage when Iraq was invaded and on a pretext at that. Nor do I remember any widespread condemnation of what was happening at the time. I do remember a US gunship obliterating a wedding party though and I did see a naked and arrogant swagger which I saw earlier in Vietnam (another invasion). The real USA. Haven't been a fan since.

I went to the protest march in the city against the Iraq war.

I certainly remember the devastation scenes that came out of Iraq, especially the bodies of dead children in their parents arms. Also i recall the disgusting behaviour of some of the US military on Iraqi POW

Yes i agree with you regarding the Americas track record with starting wars that were not necessary that caused massive death and devastation.

Its no surprise to see the US act more of a support for the European members of NATO and not take the lead in this Ukraine invasion.

[mightyrooster]

Doesn't matter want I want I'm one of the Sheeple on this one. The West should stop being disingenuous about Russian concerns regarding their security. That's a fantasy!

You seem to have wiped from your mind that just 78 years ago Russia was pretty much left in ruin. And it wasn't the first time. In 1919 Allied forces joined in with the counter revolutionary White Army to prolong the civil war. Russia has a living memory not just a vague fear. Get over it - is that your attitude? Context is fundamental.

Anyway , it doesn't matter who did what to whom and what's at the root of it all now. Reality is here. Who would know what the war aims are or even how the invasion will resolve the main issue - Ukraine neutrality re NATO I would imagine but they don't consult me.

War is obviously nightmarish but I don't remember seeing anywhere near the human misery footage when Iraq was invaded and on a pretext at that. Nor do I remember any widespread condemnation of what was happening at the time. I do remember a US gunship obliterating a wedding party though and I did see a naked and arrogant swagger which I saw earlier in Vietnam (another invasion). The real USA. Haven't been a fan since.

You have a selective view MR, conventional and cherry picking, pretty much an ABC perspective. Fine, most people share it, but I'm amazed that demonisation has got to the point where the Russian side of the argument is arrogantly and routinely totally ignored. This is what we see in times of tension. Truth is always the first casualty. The masses get emotional and the consequences are not much thought about.

ABC? Better than ACA or 36 Minutes I guess! I don’t see my view as being selective. Cynical maybe. Complacent maybe. I’ve said before I’m no fan of US foreign policy. I’ve said to the husband and others many times over the years ‘Isn’t it hilarious how when the yanks go into another country it’s called freedom fighting and liberation’? The Iraq war was a disgrace. The Gulf war in the 90s, watching the military might of the US bombing Iraq as prime time TV entertainment. Ridiculous. I am well aware of the hypocrisy. But I guess when it comes down to it I kind of like our Democratic system. I enjoy our freedoms. I’m glad we don’t have Putin as our President or the Russian system as our firm of government. And I really really don’t want to see a World War before I die.

[Rooster1908]

ABC? Better than ACA or 36 Minutes I guess! I don’t see my view as being selective. Cynical maybe. Complacent maybe. I’ve said before I’m no fan of US foreign policy. I’ve said to the husband and others many times over the years ‘Isn’t it hilarious how when the yanks go into another country it’s called freedom fighting and liberation’? The Iraq war was a disgrace. The Gulf war in the 90s, watching the military might of the US bombing Iraq as prime time TV entertainment. Ridiculous. I am well aware of the hypocrisy. But I guess when it comes down to it I kind of like our Democratic system. I enjoy our freedoms. I’m glad we don’t have Putin as our President or the Russian system as our firm of government. And I really really don’t want to see a World War before I die.

At the end of the day Ukraine has the right to join Nato if they are welcomed and no country be it USA or Russia , China or anyone else has the right to take the freedom from anyone else. What happened 100 , 75 or 25 years ago should not come into it . The fact that we stand by and watch what is happening is a disgrace.