Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

I wouldn’t describe Russia as purely capitalist.

Oligarchic capitalism then?

I dunno. It's clearly not the paradise for progressives that old mate seems to think it is.

[King Salvo]

Gees Comrade Paddo shows his lack of knowledge or ignorance of Russia, which is not surprising as his own source of information on Russia is Russian propaganda from Menadue's Malarkey and Full Moon Over Alabama.

McDonalds closed all their restaurants in Russia in 2022. They were replaced by a fast food chain called Vkusno i Tochka, which sells knockoff versions of McDonalds plus other items.

It was on the news at at time

https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdo...big-mac-2022-6

Comrade Paddo's idea of a revolution is reading brainwashing propaganda on far-leftist sites and calling anyone who disagrees with this sheepies and puppets of American and Western capitalism.

Comrade Paddo still finds it hard to believe that the Gulag Archipelago existed and has the view that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim, etc. were just misunderstood by the West.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's book should be compulsory reading in Schools

[Paddo Colt 61]

Izzy . Again you put words in my mouth. I’ve never claimed anything for post Soviet Russia apart from it having a case regarding the real responsibility for the war in Ukraine. I and many others are saying that it wasn’t “unprovoked”, the compliant and conspiratorial media has sold that line to the masses. Ol’ King Cole, or is it Isambard, glory in the thought that our media is not Pravda. Really? There are none so blind…… But he’s probably right, Pravda would have had much less Celebrity content and a lot more discussion. Making money wasn’t it’s main goal.

* Kingo. I’ve never said anything other that the Soviet Union was not allowed to function in a Marxist way from day one. Paranoia set in early after the counter revolution and the incessant pressure of the capitalist West culminating in WW2 which all but destroyed it. no doubt there were injustices as there are in the US regarding perceived enemies - our own Julian Assange for example. As MR rightly points out, if there is trouble in the world, the US is usually behind it. Do the unprovoked wars of recent times - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan say anything to you at all? Clearly not, which is why you are not worth listening to, we can all just turn to your MSM.

[King Salvo]

The only one responsible for the unprovoked war in Ukraine is Russia, and its leader in Putin.

Been over the NATO expansion, as at no time at all was this discussed, and this has been confirmed by Gorbachev in an interview he gave and in his book.

One would say Gorbachev would know, as he was there at these meetings.

The problem with your Putin is that he cannot understand or accept that independent and sovereign countries can make up their own minds about their place in the world and are able to apply to join any organisation they so wish.

Not sure how the Capitalist West were behind WW2 when you consider the ideologies of both Germany and Soviet Union were Anti Capitalism.

Your problem is your lack of knowledge on particular subjects and your use of whataboutism and deflection to avoid any debate on such topics.

Not sure how you can compare alleged injustices with Assange to what happened in the Soviet Union firstly under Lenin and then Stalin. Lenin ordered the setting up of the Gulag agency and resultant workcamp system, and Stalin expanded the workcamps to unprecedented numbers.

Unprovoked wars is an interesting comment: Vietnam: Stopping the Spread of Marxism in South-east Asia; Iraq: should have taken out Saddam the first time; Afghanistan: need to get on top of those jihadist groups based in Afghanistan; all reasonable reasons for being there.

Your beloved Soviet Union/Russia, though, had and has different reasons for being where they have been and currently are, which have nothing to do with anything other than for Russia to control them from Moscow, the same as in old Soviet Union days.

Either in these places to prop up a pro-Soviet Union Communist government in Afghanistan, a war that you conveniently forget about

And then to depose governments that are pro-independence, not favoured by Moscow, or pro-West, and to create so-called independent republics that become Russian republics and pro-Russia.

In Chechnya, which was twice invaded, the Chechen government was pro-independence, which was not liked by Russia. In the Second War, they took full control and installed a pro-Russian puppet government.

Georgia ( North and South Ossetia and Abkhazia ) - Pro West Government which of course is not liked by Russia - Invade Georgia and set up so called Independent republics who are pro Russia and basically Russian Republics.

Ukraine ( Donbass and Crimea ) - Pro West Government which is not liked by Russia - Provided Military Assistance and Support to try to set up so called independent republics in the Donbass and Crimea which was a precursor for the Russian Full-Scale Invasion of Ukraine

Ah yes, Russia doesn't mind countries having their own governments as long as they pick who they are, remain pro-Russian, are controlled by Moscow, have no dealings with Western governments, or wish to join any West Organisation.

[Random Rooster]

Maybe Paddo is on to something about the USA.....i just saw Trump at his rally telling a stadium full of slack jawed yokels that " Biden's handling of the Ukraine conflict is going to lead to World War 2" to a chorus of booooo'ssss


Closer to home he said " theres something wrong in country when they dont ask you for your ID to vote but you do need ID to buy a loaf of bread" . Thats pretty bad. Maybe life in Russia/China is better?!?

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo; Ah yes, Russia doesn't mind countries having their own governments as long as they pick who they are, remain pro-Russian, are controlled by Moscow, have no dealings with Western governments, or wish to join any West Organisation.

Sounds more like the US that actually changes regimes that it doesn’t approve of. Cuba is still being strangled and the Us has the gall to claim that Socialism there is a failure.

Actually there is some kind of tactic here where the terms are switched around either to confuse or, more likely, out of plain ignorance. Randy lambasted me recently claiming hypocrisy but he had me as fascist and the rich as left wing. It was as though he had no idea of Left and Right as political concepts and disconcerting to say the least even allowing for the. Year 10 thing which is a load to bear admittedly. Jaxie, alone to my knowledge, bears it with pride parroting Murdoch without one hint of embarrassment and, of course, Kingo is something of an exemplar in presenting ignorance as truth.

[mightyrooster]

Oligarchic capitalism then?

I dunno. It's clearly not the paradise for progressives that old mate seems to think it is.

As Paddo said, a bit of a mixed economy, but predominantly oligarchic with socialist elements. Most of the capital is owned by a small group of wealthy elites. But at the same time sectors like education and health care are free and public funded. The police and railways are also predominantly state owned. Most capitalist economies are mixed to some extent as you’re always going to have government regulations in health and safety, climate targets, taxes, quotas, tariffs etc, but Russia is pretty unique. The concentration of capital with a small wealthy elite also has political implications. The US isn’t perfect either though as it could be argued that massive corporations have way too much influence and power on their economy and political system too.

[Paddo Colt 61]

‘Could be argued”? The Rand Corp seems to run the joint. A plutocracy if ever there was one.

One thing about Ruski economic planners, they’re smart. The US has failed dismally with its grinding sanctions on Russia and anyone who trades with it. But failure to exert its hegemonic economic might is not what suggests to me that the US is in decline, it’s the social fracturing, the animus that characterises the political divide and the increasing wealth gap. A QANTAS friend tells me that the San Fran of fond memory no longer exists. For one thing the determining amount for a Shoplifting charge has been increased to $900 which tells you three things - the jails are full , private property is no longer sacrosanct and poverty is rife.

Elsewhere, China’s vision for a prosperous and peaceful Global South and the world in general is humming along, the contrast could not be starker.

[King Salvo]

Cuba is a poor country, but one you should visit, Comrade Paddo, as we did a few years ago.

According to a 2022 report from the Cuban Human Rights Observatory (OCDH), 72 percent of Cubans live below the poverty line. 21 percent of Cubans who live below the poverty line frequently go without breakfast, lunch or dinner due to a lack of money. Pensions are among the smallest in the Americas at $9.50/month.

There is a big difference between what the US and Russia do, as the US encourages democratic values and assists in the holding of free elections, whereas Russia installs pro-Russian puppet governments they can control from Moscow

For someone who claims to be the smartest person in the room but is in the wrong room, your lack of knowledge and naivety never cease to amaze, one has to say.

It makes one think that you're either taking the piss or are just a token Marxist with all that anti-capitalist west diatribe you post.

Surely you would love to take the plunge one day and at least visit these countries and live there even as tourists under the regimes you so admire, i.e., Russia and China. North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, and Venezuela

Be aware, though, that when in Moscow, there is not much of your Marxist hero Lenin remaining other than the skeleton; plastics and other materials are used to keep the form and shape of the infamous despot.

By having Lenin still on display, it goes to show Russia's inability or unwillingness to bury its Soviet past, which still lives on under the current despot, Vladimir Putin.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

‘Could be argued”? The Rand Corp seems to run the joint. A plutocracy if ever there was one.

One thing about Ruski economic planners, they’re smart. The US has failed dismally with its grinding sanctions on Russia and anyone who trades with it. But failure to exert its hegemonic economic might is not what suggests to me that the US is in decline, it’s the social fracturing, the animus that characterises the political divide and the increasing wealth gap. A QANTAS friend tells me that the San Fran of fond memory no longer exists. For one thing the determining amount for a Shoplifting charge has been increased to $900 which tells you three things - the jails are full , private property is no longer sacrosanct and poverty is rife.

Elsewhere, China’s vision for a prosperous and peaceful Global South and the world in general is humming along, the contrast could not be starker.

Vision for a Peaceful global South ....you really should turn professional on the standup circuit. That would kill any audience.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Maybe Paddo is on to something about the USA.....i just saw Trump at his rally telling a stadium full of slack jawed yokels that " Biden's handling of the Ukraine conflict is going to lead to World War 2" to a chorus of booooo'ssss


Closer to home he said " theres something wrong in country when they dont ask you for your ID to vote but you do need ID to buy a loaf of bread" . Thats pretty bad. Maybe life in Russia/China is better?!?

You are truly a confusing poster Randy. Right and Left by turns. But I agree on this one. Time to shed the blinkers and pour the Cool Aid down the sink.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n1030968][QUOTE=King Salvo; Ah yes, Russia doesn't mind countries having their own governments as long as they pick who they are, remain pro-Russian, are controlled by Moscow, have no dealings with Western governments, or wish to join any West Organisation.

Sounds more like the US that actually changes regimes that it doesn’t approve of. Cuba is still being strangled and the Us has the gall to claim that Socialism there is a failure.

Actually there is some kind of tactic here where the terms are switched around either to confuse or, more likely, out of plain ignorance. Randy lambasted me recently claiming hypocrisy but he had me as fascist and the rich as left wing. It was as though he had no idea of Left and Right as political concepts and disconcerting to say the least even allowing for the. Year 10 thing which is a load to bear admittedly. Jaxie, alone to my knowledge, bears it with pride parroting Murdoch without one hint of embarrassment and, of course, Kingo is something of an exemplar in presenting ignorance as truth.[/QUOTE]

I'm alone in researching and consuming a little more depth of content than is provided in the MSM? You really need to get out more. The quiet good livin people of western culture are awakening on a large scale to the Orwellian strangulation by the dictatorships, and also to its cancerous seepage into our own domestic politics. It would indeed be more embarrassing to accept the rule of tyranny that 2 plus 2 equals 5 without critically questioning such dictums.

[mightyrooster]

‘Could be argued? The Rand Corp seems to run the joint. A plutocracy if ever there was one.

One thing about Ruski economic planners, they’re smart. The US has failed dismally with its grinding sanctions on Russia and anyone who trades with it. But failure to exert its hegemonic economic might is not what suggests to me that the US is in decline, it’s the social fracturing, the animus that characterises the political divide and the increasing wealth gap. A QANTAS friend tells me that the San Fran of fond memory no longer exists. For one thing the determining amount for a Shoplifting charge has been increased to $900 which tells you three things - the jails are full , private property is no longer sacrosanct and poverty is rife.

Elsewhere, China’s vision for a prosperous and peaceful Global South and the world in general is humming along, the contrast could not be starker.

Gee I never would have guessed that would be the one point you would hone in on. Very predictable. Unlike you I will make an effort to find a point of agreement. Yes the level of poverty in the US is shocking. We employed an American guy to do some building work for us last year. He's been living here for 10 years now but had to return home for a family emergency. When he got back he told us about how the place has really deteriorated and turned very grim. He described how the people there were really rude, unfriendly and seemed to be constantly on edge.

As for Russia, yeah the the majority of the nation's capital controlled by a small wealthy elite sounds like an awesome way to do business.

[ism22]

I'm so confused. Really not sure why we're getting told that authoritarian regimes are... oh sod it! WE ARE GOING AROUND AND AROUND IN CIRCLES FOR NO REASON!!!

What is your point Paddo? Long story short, your strawman portrayal of all non-CCP/Kremlin approved news as being 'propaganda' has failed to convince me that I'm being swindled by 'the west'.

I live in Australia because I like it here. My wife is from Vietnam originally and has chosen to live here. Our mutual friends include various people in similar situations. Believe it or not... people who've lived under authoritarian regimes often view Australia as being far more 'free'. Something about being able to say whatever you like without being arrested!

We can go through a process of faux 'intellectual' masturbation forever and ever. Fact is... lived experiences are more valuable than the opinions of outcasts who post on anti-western blogs. Think for a minute. Why are all the contributors old white people on Australian government pensions? Why aren't lotsa young Asians/Russians 'bravely' posting there. Hmmmmm!!! Maybe you should befriend some and ask?

[Paddo Colt 61]

a cursory run down of contributors to Menadue would indicate to even the most irredeemable dimwit that the site is credible and not in a bull’s roar of far left. Also most communities respect the opinions of elders.

immigrants, contrary to popular opinion are generally not Left or even Democratic. Mostly they emigrate to better themselves materially. In that pursuit they pretty much vote Conservative unless of course the ham fisted Tories insult them. Our “conservatives” however, thrive on divisiveness and always have done. You see the interests of the rich are shared only by 15% top. They, therefore, rely on fear and loathing to get to the 51%. And that’s the job of their fellow rich media moguls.