Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

*Izzy. You haven't read that US embassy communique have you? Why are there no photos of atrocity

LOLz...

1. As noted, I've read this [disputed, selectively] 'leaked cable' and addressed it on multiple occasions (noting it agrees that killings happened on the way to and from the square but the particular person did not observe what happened in the square). It's a red herring at best for you to STILL be focussing on whether or not all the killings happened inside the square. Noting, there's multiple other cables (including the one that Bob Hawke leaked) and eye witness accounts.

PS - so you know, a communique is not the same thing as a cable (a communique is an agreement between leaders at say a G20 meeting whereas a cable is a message that is sent internally between government officials... they are generally 'secret' on the basis that they are for internal usage only, on the basis that they are a WIP and facts are yet to be properly fleshed out. Hence why they may well contain a heap of seemingly conflicting versions of events as people are trying to piece things together). Nice try at using big words though...

2. It's a good question... why did the CCP arrest & kill people then try its hardest to burn all the evidence? Happy to discuss your thoughts on why they did this. Again, noting it's an established fact that even today the mention of the massacre in China will lead to your arrest. This topic requires discussion before it is of any value to go further - you cannot ignore the elephant in the room.

[Random Rooster]

* Randy: Your implication is that Iraq was an honest "mistake" and wouldn't happen again in the light of experience. They've been beating up on people for the 90+ % period of their existence. It's a violent hegemon!

No it wasn't a honest mistake- yes its been acknowledged as a mistake by the present American president and yes it could easily happen again- and has. Neil Finn was wrong, history sometimes repeats!

[Paddo Colt 61]

Why can’t you just provide the link Now FTR I never ever at any stage believed the WOMD story

What are you a cripple or sumfin?

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/8...NG18828_a.html

Ol' Iz is now saying Wikileaks faked it. Can you believe it? The US has spent all this time and money on Assange when he's clearly a fake news guy.

And, oh, so they destroyed all the evidence? Must have been at lightning speed? And they got hold of every camera from the tens of thousands there - amazing!

[Andrew Walker]

What are you a cripple or sumfin?

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/8...NG18828_a.html

Ol' Iz is now saying Wikileaks faked it. Can you believe it? The US has spent all this time and money on Assange when he's clearly a fake news guy.

And, oh, so they destroyed all the evidence? Must have been at lightning speed? And they got hold of every camera from the tens of thousands there - amazing!

A normal person will usually provide the demonstrable evidence to back their statements up at the time of making them But then again it is you so that goes out the window

[Paddo Colt 61]

A normal person will usually provide the demonstrable evidence to back their statements up at the time of making them But then again it is you so that goes out the window

Not many on here ever have any "evidence" to back up claims. Heckle and Jeckle think the assertions of Western media is evidence. I told you what to google but you were looking for a gotcha buddy. What you got was a gutsa.

Anyway what do you think or did you not read it? Note that the diplomat was the Chilean ambassador, Pinochet's man, hardly a friend of China.

[Andrew Walker]

Not many on here ever have any "evidence" to back up claims. Heckle and Jeckle think the assertions of Western media is evidence. I told you what to google but you were looking for a gotcha buddy. What you got was a gutsa.

Anyway what do you think or did you not read it? Note that the diplomat was the Chilean ambassador, Pinochet's man, hardly a friend of China.

Not at all Id read this long before I wanted you to post it so Izzy could comment on the eye witness account

By the Chilean diplomats account nothing happened in the square but a few who wouldn’t move on were given a good kicking

He was not witness to what did or did not happen in the lanes out of the square What do you think was being moved out of the laneway in bags that this Chilean diplomat spoke of

[ism22]

What are you a cripple or sumfin?

...

And, oh, so they destroyed all the evidence? Must have been at lightning speed? And they got hold of every camera from the tens of thousands there - amazing!

Happy to compare athletic prowess. However, I believe that's another area where you might struggle to keep up with me, mate. At least with politics you've got John Menadue and co to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside when I school you

Second point though... the destruction of evidence should not surprise you since taking about a military crackdown on pro-democracy protests. Some photos made it out though, confirming that the widely accepted truth about the massacre was not made-up. Google it if you wanna see some seriously farked up shyte, but here's a couple to keep you happy as you like leaks

[Paddo Colt 61]

Not at all Id read this long before I wanted you to post it so Izzy could comment on the eye witness account

By the Chilean diplomats account nothing happened in the square but a few who wouldn’t move on were given a good kicking

He was not witness to what did or did not happen in the lanes out of the square What do you think was being moved out of the laneway in bags that this Chilean diplomat spoke of

No, no, you're playing the fool again Loki. So you think there was a massacre of thousands but it was quickly tidied up in garbage bags? Jeezus!!

There aren't good kickings handed out to demonstrators everywhere ? See BLM riots.

[Random Rooster]

Not many on here ever have any "evidence" to back up claims. .

A couple of months ago i linked the official Kremlin website as my source to whatever it was i was referring to because you said i was a MSM junkie.....and you still smashed me!! At that point i knew you really were a closed book.

[Andrew Walker]

No, no, you're playing the fool again Loki. So you think there was a massacre of thousands but it was quickly tidied up in garbage bags? Jeezus!!

There aren't good kickings handed out to demonstrators everywhere ? See BLM riots.

Not at all gelding. Your post is you putting words in my mouth.

Interesting to note the Chinese list the official death toll in the 200s. So by their own admission people were killed.

PS Don’t forget Izzy knows people who know people that were witness to the event.

In saying that we must give credit to Izzy as he keeps on turning up and contributing to these threads Unlike Jaxxx who has scarpered in disgrace after his beating of the drums for war showed himself up as being a war monger with scant regard to the lives of those innocent Palestinian women snd children

[ism22]

No, no, you're playing the fool again Loki.

Grow up.

So you think there was a massacre of thousands but it was quickly tidied up in garbage bags? Jeezus!!

Google it if you wanna know how they did it.

There aren't good kickings handed out to demonstrators everywhere ? See BLM riots.

Pro-democracy protesters being killed by the military followed by the government trying to completely whitewash the events by banning all media/discourse ~40 years later?

Yeah sorry, that only happens in bloody dictatorships.

[Paddo Colt 61]

* Apologies Randy. I thought at the time that the Kremlin Website was just having a go. You need to give more context with things like that.

* Andy. I'm misunderstanding you a bit lately. Will try to do better.

* I'm not saying that people weren't killed in those wider demonstrations. Many of them were soldiers. The protestors were not all pro Democracy either, perhaps most were protesting the capitalist reforms of the time. The protests formed over weeks and, at first, unarmed soldiers were sent in to monitor and keep order. There were ambushes of those unarmed soldiers and many were murdered, defiled and hung from overpasses so it is not unreasonable to expect that when the final push came that there would not be violence. The lurid reports of bloody massacre of thousands crushed by tanks in Tiananmen square which is still trotted out as "evidence" of the brutality of the CCP did not, however, happen apparently. We were lied to.

* Izzy: Etymology of "communique" - French. Something communicated.

* Anyone interested in human reaction to cognitive dissonance couldn't go past the postings on this topic - sheer denial!

* On another subject, the people of Tassie have spoken, mumbled or grunted or whatever else it is they do. Tassie is the nation's basket case - top of the list in lowest educational outcomes, unemployment, welfare, propensity for gambling and share of GST revenue. MSM consists of just one newspaper, the Mercury, a Murdoch publication. The Jacquie Lambie Network has now emerged as kingmakers, a dumb outfit that went into the election with NO policies. Like that election in Queensland years ago when a whole gaggle of One Nation found themselves in parliament, none of them with any idea about anything apart from whingeing.

It says a lot about who keeps Tories in power in Australia. That's our "democracy", outcomes decided by meatheads. My most vivid impression of Ms. Lambie apart from the druggie family was her jubilation at the repeal of the so called carbon tax, an impost on business that is now agreed to be essential by most environmentally responsible economists.

[ism22]

* weren't killed in those wider demonstrations. Many of them were soldiers. The protestors were not all pro Democracy either, perhaps most were protesting the capitalist reforms of the time.

These were pro-democracy protests.

* Izzy: Etymology of "communique" - French. Something communicated.

As you say... 'google it'. Nobody with basic knowledge of how diplomatic communications & multilateral forums work would run that argument or say that the words 'cable' and 'communique' are interchangeable.

You are incorrect and are merely demonstrating that you have NFI what cables even are.

It says a lot about who keeps Tories in power in Australia. That's our "democracy", outcomes decided by meatheads.

Confirming that you'd prefer a single party state where nobody that you disagree with gets to vote. Zzzzz...

[Paddo Colt 61]

Says who Iz? No, the Western media says "pro Democracy" whatever that means. They're not gonna say anything else are they? You see Western news sources are hardly authoritative despite your fervent belief in the "free" press.

* My comment re Tassie refers to the quality of our "democracy". Thousands voting for NO POLICIES. Was does that mean = c'mon Jacquie surprise us!

[ism22]

...the Western media says "pro Democracy" whatever that means. They're not gonna say anything else are they? You see Western news sources are hardly authoritative despite your fervent belief in the "free" press.

So what you're saying is that you'd prefer to be rounded up and shot by the CCP's military for holding your dissenting views rather than have to accept that a farcically small state (which I've never visited - gonna assume that a heap of conservative recluses / doomers live there) has voted for the Tories?