Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[King Salvo]

The Battle of Kyiv: A Tale of Russian Missteps and Ukrainian Ingenuity

[Random Rooster]

Well here it is....Australia's trusted allie the United States of America. Corrupt to the core

As I have repeatedly predicted in this thread (refer to post 1160, for instance), Putin was banking on Trump winning the last election for all his wishes to come true. Ronald Reagan would be turning in his grave



Trump on the attack calls Zelensky a dictator who ‘stole from US’

Washington: President Donald Trump has launched an extraordinary attack on Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky, calling the wartime leader a “dictator without elections” and implying without evidence that Ukraine stole billions from the United States.

In a TruthSocial post that cements a breakdown in relations between the two men and the reversal of a long-standing US position on Russia’s war on Ukraine, Trump trashed Zelensky as “a modestly successful comedian” who had “talked the United States of America into spending $350 Billion Dollars, to go into a War that couldn’t be won”.

“On top of this, Zelensky admits that half of the money we sent him is ‘MISSING’,” Trump claimed. “He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden ‘like a fiddle’. A Dictator without Elections, Zelensky better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left.”

Maintaining his assertion the war would not have started if he had still been president, Trump went on to claim only he could end the conflict.

“Biden never tried, Europe has failed to bring Peace, and Zelensky probably wants to keep the ‘gravy train’ going,” he wrote. “I love Ukraine, but Zelensky has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died.”

The provocative post full of lies, made on Wednesday, came after Vice President J.D. Vance last week stunned European leaders with a speech suggesting their real adversary was not Russia or China but “the enemy within”, referring to censorship and mass migration.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andrii Sybiha said the country would not capitulate.

“Ukraine withstood the most horrific military attack in Europe’s modern history and three years of a total war,” he said. “The Ukrainian people and [President Volodymyr Zelensky] refused to give in to Putin’s pressure. Nobody can force Ukraine to give up. We will defend our right to exist.”

The past 48 hours have seen relations between Trump and Zelensky rapidly deteriorate while Ukraine and Europe were left out of talks between senior American and Russian officials in Saudi Arabia.

Trump has repeatedly claimed Zelensky has an approval rating of just 4 per cent, which is wrong. A poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology earlier this month found 57 per cent of Ukrainians said they trusted Zelensky, up from 52 per cent in December.

The notion Zelensky is an illegitimate leader with no popular support is a Kremlin propaganda point. Zelensky told Ukrainian television the US president was trapped in a Russian disinformation bubble and said he wanted “more truth” from Trump’s team.

“We have evidence that these figures are being discussed between America and Russia. That is, President [Donald] Trump ... unfortunately lives in this disinformation space,” Zelensky said.

As Trump demands security for US weapons and aid, Zelensky has suggested giving American companies the right to extract valuable minerals in Ukraine in return for US security guarantees but indicted that was not what Trump was offering.

Zelensky told a press conference the US had given Ukraine $US67 billion ($105 billion) in weapons and $US31.5 billion in budget support and that American demands for $US500 billion in minerals were “not a serious conversation” and that he could not sell his country.

He was expected to meet Trump’s Ukraine envoy Keith Kellogg, who said as he arrived in Kyiv that he expected substantial talks as the war approaches its three-year mark.

“We understand the need for security guarantees,” Kellogg told journalists, saying that part of his mission would be “to sit and listen”.


Following Trump’s post, Zelensky on Thursday (AEDT) announced he had spoken with a number of world leaders and key figures, including British Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, French President Emmanuel Macron and US Republican senator Lindsey Graham, who chairs the Senate Budget Committee.

Starmer said he spoke to the “democratically elected leader” Zelensky and stressed the need for everyone to work together.

A Downing Street spokesman said Starmer said it was perfectly reasonable to suspend elections during wartime as the UK did during World War II.

“The prime minister reiterated his support for the US-led efforts to get a lasting peace in Ukraine that deterred Russia from any future aggression.”

Zelensky noted the bicameral and bipartisan support of US Congress, which has approved billions in defence funding and aid for Ukraine, and praised Graham as “constructive and doing a lot to help bring peace closer”.

“It’s all-important that security guarantees remain on the table – and that they work for Ukraine, for real and lasting peace,” he said in a post on X

“We cannot allow Putin to deceive everyone again. Before any potential negotiations, all partners must clearly understand that strong security guarantees are the priority for lasting peace.”

Meanwhile, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov lauded Trump for claiming the US’s previous support of Ukraine’s bid to join the NATO military alliance was a major cause of the war in Ukraine.
Trump’s upending of US policy puts the country at odds with allies in the 27-member European Union, whose envoys on Wednesday agreed on a 16th package of sanctions against Russia, including on aluminium and vessels believed to be carrying sanctioned Russian oil.

France said it did not understand the logic of Trump’s remark that Ukraine was to blame for Russia’s invasion.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Chaos continues. While the Ukrainian Nazis were hot to trot from 2024 and bombarded the Donbas killing 14000, it was the US that was running the show and continued to run it after Russia launched its "Special Operation". By their own admission, the purpose was to "degrade" Russia and to establish NATO up to the border. US aid was bound to be exploited as before the war, Ukraine was nominated as being the most corrupt nation in Europe so, no doubt, Trump's theft accusations are true.

What a shock it must be for some on here - all fired up with indignance and patriotism after accepting the US propaganda uncritically. Mind you it was parroted by every msm platform including the ABC. SBS was/is decidedly gung ho. And so it went on for 2 years, unswerving belief in propaganda by the ill informed populace.

Now, a total reversal. What is Joe Ordinary to think? He doesn't think much, he leaves that to the media and it will be interesting, going forward, to see how our Trumpist right wing msm spin the new Ukes are bad doctrine because our media has been tireless in demonising Russia and eulogising the Fascist upstarts used and directed by the US.

[Random Rooster]

Chaos continues. While the Ukrainian Nazis were hot to trot from 2024 and bombarded the Donbas killing 14000, it was the US that was running the show and continued to run it after Russia launched its "Special Operation". By their own admission, the purpose was to "degrade" Russia and to establish NATO up to the border. US aid was bound to be exploited as before the war, Ukraine was nominated as being the most corrupt nation in Europe so, no doubt, Trump's theft accusations are true.

What a shock it must be for some on here - all fired up with indignance and patriotism after accepting the US propaganda uncritically. Mind you it was parroted by every msm platform including the ABC. SBS was/is decidedly gung ho. And so it went on for 2 years, unswerving belief in propaganda by the ill informed populace.

Now, a total reversal. What is Joe Ordinary to think? He doesn't think much, he leaves that to the media and it will be interesting, going forward, to see how our Trumpist right wing msm spin the new Ukes are bad doctrine because our media has been tireless in demonising Russia and eulogising the Fascist upstarts used and directed by the US.

Yeah na yeah it's no shock but how you view how it has played out is distorted to say the least. You choose to ignore that Trump has been up Putins arse since 2016. As Malcolm Turnbull said "When you see Trump with Putin as I have on a few occasions he's like the 12-year-old boy that goes to high school and meets the captain of the football team".

Do you actually believe any of what Trump has had to say about Ukraine and Zelensky? Do you think a corrupt serial liar wanna be dictator cosying up to another corrupt serial liar actual dictator is going to spill the beans on the truth? Unfortunately Paddo, and somewhat ironically in this case, its you that is the one that is running with the far right wing propaganda machine. Ive said a few times over the past few years that your pro Russia speil was like watching Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

And before all the Trump supporters jump on me, let me say this....good on Peter Dutton for having the balls to say that Trump is wrong. Whoever does win the next Australian election has to govern Australia for the great country that we are, and not be involved in the shit show that is happening in the USA- but we can debate that on another thread

[Jacks Fur Coat]

Yeah na yeah it's no shock but how you view how it has played out is distorted to say the least. You choose to ignore that Trump has been up Putins arse since 2016. As Malcolm Turnbull said "When you see Trump with Putin as I have on a few occasions he's like the 12-year-old boy that goes to high school and meets the captain of the football team".

Do you actually believe any of what Trump has had to say about Ukraine and Zelensky? Do you think a corrupt serial liar wanna be dictator cosying up to another corrupt serial liar actual dictator is going to spill the beans on the truth? Unfortunately Paddo, and somewhat ironically in this case, its you that is the one that is running with the far right wing propaganda machine. Ive said a few times over the past few years that your pro Russia speil was like watching Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

And before all the Trump supporters jump on me, let me say this....good on Peter Dutton for having the balls to say that Trump is wrong. Whoever does win the next Australian election has to govern Australia for the great country that we are, and not be involved in the shit show that is happening in the USA- but we can debate that on another thread

I'll get my mate Tony to shirt-front him if you like...

[Paddo Colt 61]

I think these amazing events are hilarious. The ground has shifted beneath the masses who have bought American propaganda ever since 1917 really. "What's this all about?" they bleat. "It's about you lot being rolled gold mugs, that's what. How will Trump explain the about face to a populace that has been conditioned to despise Russia and Putin and to venerate those plucky Ukes fighting for freedom ? (The smart ones pissed off early). He'll blame it all on Obama and Biden, and as for the astounding pro Russia stuff, the Sheeple will accept that without missing a beat. They were never that much interested anyway.

Your premise, Randy, that Putin is evil is no more than a propaganda construct which, said often enough, becomes accepted fact and, by golly, it's been said enough - a dripping tap. All the stories - people out of windows, plane crashes - nothing substantiated, no evidence - propaganda. That he ended the Wall St Wild West show after the demise of the Soviets was his worst sin - no more US financed oligarchs and open slather exploitation of the Russian people. Naturally, the US wants him gone, they've off-ed plenty like him all over the world in the past.

Gotta go. Need to tune into Sky to have a good laugh at the explanations.

[King Salvo]

Capitalist Paddo with that old worn out often used line from his mate Putin about Nazi's - ah yes there were Nazi's in Chechnya , Georgia , Dagestan and of course Ukraine too according to Putin.

Crazy to think this when the Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish and 4 of his relatives died in the Nazi German Concentration Camps and another 2 when the Nazi Germans burnt their home to the ground when they were in it.

Also Zelenskyy's Grandfather served in the Red Army during WW2 reaching the Rank of Colonel.

Everyone knows that Putin is still stuck in the cold war and thinks that Soviet Era propaganda tactics still work in an age when these types of statements can be fact checked.

There are actually more Nazi/Neo Nazi groups in Russia than anywhere else - Putin's private paramilitary Army Cartel the Wagner Group is one of these. - co-founder Dmitry Utkin a Neo Nazi whose call sign was Wagner for a reason and gave the name to this group- Wagner was Hitlers favourite composer and a known antisemitic.

Over 1 million Soviet POW's mainly Russians switched sides and fought for Nazi Germans in WW2 - Soviet Red Army General Andrey Vlasov captured at Leningrad was the Commanding Officer of the Army of the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia.

Anyone with half a brain would now that it was a land grab by Putin for what was underneath that ground in Ukraine - The little green men without insignias were actually the Wagner Group - Russia armed and backed Pro Russian Militants in both the Crimea and Donbas for the illegal annexation of these regions - 53% of Ukraine's resources are in these regions.

No Surprise that Russia is the Most Corrupt Country in Europe - Corruption is endemic in Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index

The old privatisation voucher in privatising Public Owned Assets after the collapse of the Soviet Union - The general public (Adults and even Minors) were given these for free but not really informed about what these were and meant. These could be exchanged for shares in Public owned assets to be privatised for a price.

They didn't want an open sale of public owned assets thinking that this would result in the concentration of ownership of these assets among the Russian Mafia and Nomenklatura ( Commo Party Elite and Bureaucracy).

The privatisation voucher system didn't work as the usual shady folk - Russian Mafia and Nomenklatura ( Commo Party Elite and Bureaucracy) scoured Russia and other former Soviet Union republics buying these off the rather poor folk for a pittance who needed the cash and were too poor to invest in buying shares.

Hence the rise of the Oligarchs in Russia and other former Soviet Republics - all mates of Putin until he started to get rid of a few of them - jail them / exile them or the so called accident with the Russian Government then acquiring these assets with Putin of course cashing in - hence the over 200 Billion USD in assets Putin has






Ah yes one of Putin's little Dacha's ( 2.1 billion value) just one of those many assets in the over 200 Billion USD portfolio of assets he has acquired over the years





mmm Elections have been mentioned

The UK didn't hold elections during WW2 for obvious reasons - Ukraine is under Marshall Law for obvious reasons as well

Putin had to stand down in 2010 as in Russia you cannot serve more than two consecutive terms as President -Dmitry Medvedev took over for a token term but all knew who was calling the shots. - Presidential terms are now 6 years in Russia and Putin conveniently changed the constitution to that no Russian President can serve more than 2 six year terms in total in 2020 - Of course this did not come into affect until 2024 so Putin's previous 2 terms were excluded.

With no opposition Putin can serve 2 more terms of 6 years - i.e be President of the Russian Federation until 2036. - 32 years as President all up.

In true democracies with direct elections of Presidents it is impossible for any candidate to receive 89% of the vote as Putin did in the so called 2024 "Elections" or 88% of the vote that Lukashenko did in Belarus

Trump received 49.8% of the vote compared to Harris's 48.3%

[Random Rooster]

I think these amazing events are hilarious. The ground has shifted beneath the masses who have bought American propaganda ever since 1917 really. "What's this all about?" they bleat. "It's about you lot being rolled gold mugs, that's what. How will Trump explain the about face to a populace that has been conditioned to despise Russia and Putin and to venerate those plucky Ukes fighting for freedom ? (The smart ones pissed off early). He'll blame it all on Obama and Biden, and as for the astounding pro Russia stuff, the Sheeple will accept that without missing a beat. They were never that much interested anyway.

Your premise, Randy, that Putin is evil is no more than a propaganda construct which, said often enough, becomes accepted fact and, by golly, it's been said enough - a dripping tap. All the stories - people out of windows, plane crashes - nothing substantiated, no evidence - propaganda. That he ended the Wall St Wild West show after the demise of the Soviets was his worst sin - no more US financed oligarchs and open slather exploitation of the Russian people. Naturally, the US wants him gone, they've off-ed plenty like him all over the world in the past.

Gotta go. Need to tune into Sky to have a good laugh at the explanations.

So the UN has demands that Russia "immediately, completely, and unconditionally withdraw" from Ukraine, citing violations of its territorial integrity and sovereignty, with the resolution passing by an overwhelming vote of 143 in favor, 5 against, and 35 abstentions......yet you claim that "Worldwide, it is only the West that subscribes to the wanton aggression out of nowhere view, 90% of the world sees it differently".....and i'm the one dealing in propaganda?

Incidentally Belarus, North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Syria isn't 90% of the world, its closer to 2.7%. Only propaganda can spin in it in the opposite direction.

Did you get a chance to see the video of Tulsi spinning biullshit about the US biochemical labs in Ukraine? You know, the one you said it was just propaganda that she said it.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Those poor mugs in Ukraine. Saw a bloke on TV last night with both legs gone. What will he be thinking in a couple of years time? Oh well, mugs will be mugs. And mugs they are and mugs a lot of youse are. The smart ones promptly took off. Look back now at your original shock and horror - "Hooray, the US is coming to the aid of a minnow attacked out of the blue by an evil Empire. Hail our noble world leader!
, the USA."
Nobody knew that besides being used in a US proxy war, the Ukes were being charged for dying in their hundreds of thousands! $500 billion no less! What losers. And all of you who cheered the war on....will you ever wake up and shrug off your ignorance? Highly unlikely.

[Random Rooster]

Those poor mugs in Ukraine. Saw a bloke on TV last night with both legs gone. What will he be thinking in a couple of years time? Oh well, mugs will be mugs. And mugs they are and mugs a lot of youse are. The smart ones promptly took off. Look back now at your original shock and horror - "Hooray, the US is coming to the aid of a minnow attacked out of the blue by an evil Empire. Hail our noble world leader!
, the USA."
Nobody knew that besides being used in a US proxy war, the Ukes were being charged for dying in their hundreds of thousands! $500 billion no less! What losers. And all of you who cheered the war on....will you ever wake up and shrug off your ignorance? Highly unlikely.

I'm pretty sure you don't read my posts in this thread, and if you do, you certainly don't give them any credence.

So ill sum them up in pictures for you.....

[King Salvo]

This is Putin's War Not Foyle's

You Call Ukrainians Mugs so what do your call your Russian Mates especially since they are fighting a war that was started by a series of lies by your other mate Putin it on

[Random Rooster]

As i said before, Ronald Reagan would be rolling in his grave.

What a sell out.....its going to be a case of peace through weakness. The commitment the US has made Taiwan may as well be toast....and Xi knows it

https://www.financialexpress.com/wor...e-war/3759480/

[Paddo Colt 61]

As i said before, Ronald Reagan would be rolling in his grave.

What a sell out.....its going to be a case of peace through weakness. The commitment the US has made Taiwan may as well be toast....and Xi knows it

https://www.financialexpress.com/wor...e-war/3759480/

And a good thing too, After all Taiwan is regarded internationally as being Chinese territory.

On the upside, it would appear that peace, prosperity and flourishing trade will be what it takes to MAGA and Trump seems to want to make that a reality. The approach is brutal to say the least, but effective. He acknowledges the Real Politics. Which all leaves you indoctrinated since birth lot predictably bewildered.

Trump, erroneously, sees America as having been suckered into the conflict by a bunch of warmongering Nazis and that now allows him to behave so callously. The Truth is that US Neo Cons encouraged, even engineered, the sorry situation from the get go.

[Random Rooster]

And a good thing too, After all Taiwan is regarded internationally as being Chinese territory.

On the upside, it would appear that peace, prosperity and flourishing trade will be what it takes to MAGA and Trump seems to want to make that a reality. The approach is brutal to say the least, but effective. He acknowledges the Real Politics. Which all leaves you indoctrinated since birth lot predictably bewildered.

Trump, erroneously, sees America as having been suckered into the conflict by a bunch of warmongering Nazis and that now allows him to behave so callously. The Truth is that US Neo Cons encouraged, even engineered, the sorry situation from the get go.

Wow you actually makes it sound like Trump actually gives a shit. He has no idea about the "real politics" of the conflict-nor does he care. I know its a issue for you that Trump is Putins bitch and is surrending Ukraine for whatever reason he doesn't want to make public, as evidenced by him excluding Ukraine from peace talks, but that's the way it is. He has signalled his intentions as soon as Russia stepped onto Ukraine soil. You think Nazi's offend him? The Aryan Freedom Network are just one of the far right movements that celebrated his return to presidency- and yeah one thing he does know is who supports him. We are talking about a guy who wants to ship out 2 million people from their land and set up Mar--A -Gaza in the middle east under the guise of peace- or would you say he is Netanyahu's bitch? Prosperity and flourishing trade? With who, Russia? Well it isn't going to be with the Europeans, Canadians or anyone else he wants to slap a tariff on!

Yes it signals to Xi that a move on Taiwan has been somewhat rubber stamped by the US- but come the time to do it Trump will respond with whatever showers him with the most glory. Just like Ukraine and Palestine he has no idea about the issues surrounding Taiwan....and yeah he doesn't care either

[Paddo Colt 61]

Good post Randy though you misrepresent me at times. I do see the Trumpster as a revolutionary, not my kind but a disruptor nonetheless. I do think he cares about what he's doing but he throws out a lot of red herrings like the Gaza thing. They're distractions for the most part.

Clearly, whether it's a hatred of big government (as neocons see it) or not, he has that "drain the swamp" promise and, clearly, MAGA involves cutting Gov spending and "waste"and knobbling one's enemies and that seems to apply to "security" commitments. It is clear too that, short of WW3, there is no realistic prospect of a Uke win - they're out of guys and it's an endless money black hole. It might, under normal circumstances drag on to a "peace with dignity" but his bulldozer ebullience has gone down well so far at home so why bother.

And why not a detente with Russia? More money saved and he doesn't want Russia in China's camp. The interesting thing will be his contest with the deep state - the military and intelligence agencies. He seems to be weakening any bureaucracy that might be oppositionist.

I have no idea what the grand plan is nor does anyone else but it's interesting that he appears determined to shake up the existing paradigm - making all of the client states pay for their "security" like the Ukes are going to have to do. Whatever, it won't turn out well. Again the whole future direction is based on US exceptionalism.