Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Andrew Walker]

So you agree that Russia wasn't the aggressor in this war? Its Ukraine to blame for it being ongoing by defending themselves on Ukraine soil. Its fair enough for America to charge its allies for any military aid they provide in exchange for no security guarantees?

Maybe it's because you like fat old white racist men who need to pretend they are alpha males in adult diapers because they are really spineless an weak?

So you want an endless war ? You don’t want peace ? In spite of whose done what or who started it the thing doesn’t end without negotiation

No let’s keep just keep it going I’m sure that suits Zelensky as he stays in power for as long as that goes on The coke sniffer even has the hide to say they were alone and not supported

There are those for peace and those for war I think Zelensky is suited power wise by it being on going The coke sniffer will be out on his ear as leader come election time there

[mightyrooster]

No Involvement at in all in the removal of the Yanukovych/Azarov Government in 2014 - Russian propaganda the same as the Nazi's excuse they use to invade countries and annex regions and oh NATO as well - that was purely done by the Ukraine Citizens.

We know folk on the ground in Ukraine at the time closer to the events and Mrs Salvo's of course knows them better and for longer than me- There was no CIA folk running around organising protests and what not at all pure fantasy - we were in Chernivtsi at the time - Mid December to Mid January - Russia the last 2 weeks of January and 1st week of February. - Russian TV was on full propaganda mode.

Throw in

• Government Corruption
• Abuse of Power
• Oligarch influence - Ukraine has them too - the old privatisation voucher scheme as I mentioned before
• Police Brutality
• Human Rights Violations
• Repressive Anti Protest laws
• Restoration of the 2004 Ukraine Constitution

It boiled down to the failure of Yanukovych to sign the Political and Free Trade Agreement with the EU which was the catalyst or last straw - The Majority of Ukraine Citizens wanted it and the Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine Parliament) voted overwhelming to finalise it - Yanukovych under pressure from Moscow/Kremlin/Putin didn't sign it

The EU and US sent Diplomatic folk to Ukraine to meet with Yanukovych to convince him to negotiate a peace deal - Hardly the stance of folk supposedly behind the Revolution of Dignity/Maidan Revolution one would say.

The brokered peace deal by the EU/US involved Yanukovych signing a measure to return Ukraine to it's 2004 constitution - In 2010, Yanukovych restored the country's 1996 constitution, which hands greater power to the presidency. - No removal of him as President was part of this brokered peace deal

Of course Yanukovych failed to sign the measure and after a period of calmness he sent in the riot police - 82 people killed and over 1.100 injured. The protesters reformed in supporting the restoration of the 2004 Ukraine Constitution.

The Verkhovna Rada ( Ukraine Parliament) signed a decree condemning the use of force and for all Institutions to cease immediately all military actions against protesters.

Yanukovych knew the gig was up and fled the country - first saying he had resigned - then when in Russia ( Granted Political Asylum by Putin ) he rescinded the resignation and stated that any new elections would be Illegal as he was still the President. - The New Ukraine Government has issued a warrant for his arrest

The Verkhovna Rada ( Ukraine Parliament) voted 328 to 0 to remove Yanukovych from office - so did the the US/EU make them vote that way. Of course not

Of course Russia took advantage of this as we all know backing and arming Pro Russian Separatists and sending in the little green men ( Neo Nazi Wagner) to illegally annexe the Crimea and Donbas.

So you’re happy for the US to now see Ukraine as the bad guys while Putin is not critiqued at all?

[Random Rooster]

So you want an endless war ? You don’t want peace ? In spite of whose done what or who started it the thing doesn’t end without negotiation

No let’s keep just keep it going I’m sure that suits Zelensky as he stays in power for as long as that goes on The coke sniffer even has the hide to say they were alone and not supported

There are those for peace and those for war I think Zelensky is suited power wise by it being on going The coke sniffer will be out on his ear as leader come election time there

Yeah how about Russia turn around and go back to their side of the border? War is over.

To start "peace negotiations" with Russia and no Ukraine and Europe tells you where its at. Straight after Trump comes out calling Zelensky a dictator who is in a position of weakness- Putin easily manipulating Trump. In what world do you treat your allie with such disdain? What message does that send to America's current allies? Ive consistently said in this thread way before the last US election that Trump will gift Putin and Russia a win. It wasn't hard to see it coming, Trump was very open about his awe of Putin and that was the opening that Putin needed and has now taken

Europe, including the UK PM, have come out today and said they back Ukraine totally. There was a notable yet unsurprising exception, Hungarian dictator "Prime Minister" Viktor Orban, a far-right populist and another Putin arse licker.

Maybe its a redrawing of the worlds allies

[Paddo Colt 61]

That's pretty much the truth of it MR. What you, MR and others stubbornly deny is that a fascist led unelected government (as it was in 2014) put in power by the a US with its own strategic agenda went along with a NATO presence up to the Russian border - suicidal!

The invasion didn't arrive out of the blue, there were broken promises, broken agreements (all of them encouraged by the US). The Nazis (who wanted to de-Russify Ukraine were then duped into thinking they could win with unlimited western backing. This wasn't a situation where a helpless minnow was set upon by a monster. That has happened in the past but the monster has always been the US.

[Andrew Walker]

That's pretty much the truth of it MR. What you, MR and others stubbornly deny is that a fascist led unelected government (as it was in 2014) put in power by the a US with its own strategic agenda went along with a NATO presence up to the Russian border - suicidal!

The invasion didn't arrive out of the blue, there were broken promises, broken agreements (all of them encouraged by the US). The Nazis (who wanted to de-Russify Ukraine were then duped into thinking they could win with unlimited western backing. This wasn't a situation where a helpless minnow was set upon by a monster. That has happened in the past but the monster has always been the US.

Calling it pretty much as it is and they have a long history of it

[Andrew Walker]

Yeah how about Russia turn around and go back to their side of the border? War is over.

To start "peace negotiations" with Russia and no Ukraine and Europe tells you where its at. Straight after Trump comes out calling Zelensky a dictator who is in a position of weakness- Putin easily manipulating Trump. In what world do you treat your allie with such disdain? What message does that send to America's current allies? Ive consistently said in this thread way before the last US election that Trump will gift Putin and Russia a win. It wasn't hard to see it coming, Trump was very open about his awe of Putin and that was the opening that Putin needed and has now taken

Europe, including the UK PM, have come out today and said they back Ukraine totally. There was a notable yet unsurprising exception, Hungarian dictator "Prime Minister" Viktor Orban, a far-right populist and another Putin arse licker.

Maybe its a redrawing of the worlds allies

Brilliant Never ending warfare and the coke sniffing dictator who refuses to hold elections stays in power. I suppose it’s not too bad an outcome as if this ends I’m sure the fighting will start up somewhere else Gotta keep the MIC rolling with endless war aye

[mightyrooster]

That's pretty much the truth of it MR. What you, MR and others stubbornly deny is that a fascist led unelected government (as it was in 2014) put in power by the a US with its own strategic agenda went along with a NATO presence up to the Russian border - suicidal!

The invasion didn't arrive out of the blue, there were broken promises, broken agreements (all of them encouraged by the US). The Nazis (who wanted to de-Russify Ukraine were then duped into thinking they could win with unlimited western backing. This wasn't a situation where a helpless minnow was set upon by a monster. That has happened in the past but the monster has always been the US.

I understand and accept that the US manoeuvred and broke agreements in an attempt to weaken Russia’s power in the region. I have never said otherwise. Putin then made the decision to invade. The invasion was unprovoked, ie the manoeuvrings did not justify a full on invasion. I still stick by my original claim that both Putin and Trump are cut from the same cloth. Both self serving, narcissistic, right wing egomaniacs.

[Rooster1908]

So you want an endless war ? You don’t want peace ? In spite of whose done what or who started it the thing doesn’t end without negotiation

No let’s keep just keep it going I’m sure that suits Zelensky as he stays in power for as long as that goes on The coke sniffer even has the hide to say they were alone and not supported

There are those for peace and those for war I think Zelensky is suited power wise by it being on going The coke sniffer will be out on his ear as leader come election time there

Bloody hell Andrew , do you have proof he's a coke sniffer or the net tell you that.So if someone comes and squats in one of your many homes and the orange police tell you look Andrew they been there a while now and we can't get them out so we think it's best you just let them stay and you are happy to co habitate with them .Yeah right

[Random Rooster]

Sadly the most 'peaceful ' solution will be for Putin to be overthrown by his own, or skilfully 'taken out'. Far from all his countrymen are behind him, despite his propaganda machine. If he does remain in power, and pursue his plans he will be done for war crimes and never see freedom again, even if he does survive. He can't 'win' now.

Let's hope.

Im with ya on this Pistol Jack! I knew we had more in common than what it appears!!!

[Andrew Walker]

Bloody hell Andrew , do you have proof he's a coke sniffer or the net tell you that.So if someone comes and squats in one of your many homes and the orange police tell you look Andrew they been there a while now and we can't get them out so we think it's best you just let them stay and you are happy to co habitate with them .Yeah right

Unfortunately I had the misfortune of growing up around it and have seen the signs. He displays all the classic traits of a coke head. The nose sniffing and face contortions in the video I’ve posted are a dead giveaway

[Random Rooster]

Even some Republican lawmakers are seeing it for what it is…..

[Paddo Colt 61]

Im with ya on this Pistol Jack! I knew we had more in common than what it appears!!!

Jeez Randy. Putin is highly popular in Russia, a Russian Jaxie would love him - strong man firm in his convictions, a man of action who won't take a backward step, uneasy around gays, like ol' Pete not reluctant to "speculate".

Maybe Netanyahu is first cab if we're talking war crimes.

[Random Rooster]

Jeez Randy. Putin is highly popular in Russia, a Russian Jaxie would love him - strong man firm in his convictions, a man of action who won't take a backward step, uneasy around gays, like ol' Pete not reluctant to "speculate".

Maybe Netanyahu is first cab if we're talking war crimes.

Yeah i hears ya.

Maybe Jack has changed his view on Russia after Magatha Christie has decided to full on support Sugar Vladdy?

[Rooster1908]

Unfortunately I had the misfortune of growing up around it and have seen the signs. He displays all the classic traits of a coke head. The nose sniffing and face contortions in the video I’ve posted are a dead giveaway

Hahaha, or maybe he has allergies

[caz]

hard to know what the fallout of the oval office meeting will be. i'm hoping it will be 'the disaster we had to have'. hopefully trump now realises that zelensky means business and they'll come to some sort of a deal. without the u.s. it's very hard for the west and, frankly, the western value of democracy.
trump wants to end the war which is great but trusts putin which is crazy. even if trump thinks he can keep putin to any deal he makes trump won't be around in four years time and putin will want to eat the rest of ukraine up, not to mention the baltic states.
vance's intervention wasn't helpful. what does zelensky have to thank trump for? praise him for saying that he, zelensky, started the war? thank him for calling him, zelensky, a dictator?
i thought zelensky put his position well under pressure. trump's idea of peace is giving in to putin. that would end the war now with unjust outcomes and is unlikely to lead to a long lasting peace