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  • Prediction from a US - Russian relations expert from 8 years ago during the Obama years
    Why Cold War Again?

    By Stephen F. Cohen

    April 21, 2014

    The East-West confrontation over Ukraine, which led to Moscow’s annexation of Crimea but long predated it, is potentially the worst international crisis in more than fifty years—and the most fateful. A negotiated resolution is possible, but time may be running out.

    A new Cold War divide is already descending in Europe—not in Berlin but on Russia’s borders. Worse may follow. If NATO forces move toward Poland’s border with Ukraine, as is being called for in Washington and Europe, Moscow is likely to send its forces into eastern Ukraine. The result would be a danger of war comparable to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.

    Even if the outcome is the nonmilitary “isolation of Russia,” today’s Western mantra, the consequences will be dire. Moscow will not bow but will turn, politically and economically, to the East, as it has done before, above all to fuller alliance with China. The United States will risk losing an essential partner in vital areas of its own national security, from Iran, Syria and Afghanistan to threats of a new arms race, nuclear proliferation and more terrorism. And—no small matter—prospects for a resumption of Russia’s democratization will be terminated for at least a generation.

    Why did this happen, nearly twenty-three years after the end of Soviet Communism, when both Washington and Moscow proclaimed a new era of “friendship and strategic partnership”? The answer given by the Obama administration, and overwhelmingly by the US political-media establishment, is that President Vladimir Putin is solely to blame. The claim is that his “autocratic” rule at home and “neo-Soviet imperialist” policies abroad eviscerated the partnership established in the 1990s by Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin. This fundamental premise underpins the American mainstream narrative of two decades of US-Russian relations, and now the Ukrainian crisis.

    But there is an alternative explanation, one more in accord with the facts. Beginning with the Clinton administration, and supported by every subsequent Republican and Democratic president and Congress, the US-led West has unrelentingly moved its military, political and economic power ever closer to post-Soviet Russia. Spearheaded by NATO’s eastward expansion, already encamped in the former Soviet Baltic republics on Russia’s border—now augmented by missile defense installations in neighboring states—this bipartisan, winner-take-all approach has come in various forms.

    They include US-funded “democracy promotion” NGOs more deeply involved in Russia’s internal politics than foreign ones are permitted to be in our country; the 1999 bombing of Moscow’s Slav ally Serbia, forcibly detaching its historic province of Kosovo; a US military outpost in former Soviet Georgia (along with Ukraine, one of Putin’s previously declared “red lines”), contributing to a brief proxy war in 2008; and, throughout, one-sided negotiations, called “selective cooperation,” which took concessions from the Kremlin without meaningful White House reciprocity and followed by broken American promises.

    All of this has unfolded, sincerely for some proponents, in the name of “democracy” and “sovereign choice” for the many countries involved, but the underlying geopolitical agenda has been clear. During the first East-West conflict over Ukraine, occasioned by its 2004 “Orange Revolution,” an influential GOP columnist, Charles Krauthammer, acknowledged, “This is about Russia first, democracy only second…. The West wants to finish the job begun with the fall of the Berlin Wall and continue Europe’s march to the east…. The great prize is Ukraine.” The late Richard Holbrooke, an aspiring Democratic secretary of state, concurred, hoping even then for Ukraine’s “final break with Moscow” and to “accelerate” Kiev’s membership in NATO.

    That Russia’s political elite has long held this same menacing view of US intentions makes it no less true—or any less consequential. Formally announcing the annexation of Crimea on March 18, Putin vented Moscow’s longstanding resentments. Several of his assertions were untrue and alarming, but others were reasonable, or at least understandable, not “delusional.” Referring to Western (primarily American) policy-makers since the 1990s, he complained bitterly that they were “trying to drive us into some kind of corner,” “have lied to us many times” and in Ukraine “have crossed the line,” warning: “Everything has its limits.”

    We are left, then, with profoundly conflicting Russian-Western narratives and a political discourse of the uncomprehending, itself often the prelude to war. Demonized for years, Putin receives almost no serious consideration in Washington. His annexation speech, for example, was dismissed as a “package of fictions” by former secretary of state Madeleine Albright. Nothing in Washington’s replies diminishes Putin’s reasonable belief that the EU trade agreement rejected by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in November, and Yanukovych’s overthrow in February by violent street protests, leading to the current “illegitimate” government, were intended to sever Ukraine’s centuries-long ties with Russia and bind it to NATO. (Today’s crisis was triggered by the EU’s reckless ultimatum, despite Putin’s offer of a “tripartite” agreement, which compelled an elected president of a deeply divided country to choose economically between the West and Russia, an approach since criticized by former German chancellors Helmut Kohl and Gerhard Schröder. The EU’s proffered “partnership” also included little-noticed “security” provisions requiring Ukraine’s “convergence” with NATO policies, without mentioning the military alliance.)

    Meanwhile, on both sides, belligerent rhetoric escalates, military forces are being mobilized and provocations mount in Ukraine’s political civil war, with toughs in black masks, armed militias, “spontaneous” secessionist demonstrations and extremist statements by some of Kiev’s would-be leaders. Anything is now possible—actual civil war, Ukraine’s partition and worse. Tit-for-tat “sanctions” only exacerbate the situation.

    There is a diplomatic way out. Putin did not begin or want this crisis; among other costs, it obliterated the achievement of his Sochi Olympics. Nor did he initiate the unfolding Cold War, inspired in Washington years before he came to power. Western policy-makers should therefore take seriously the adage, “There are two sides to every story.” Is Putin right, as he also said on March 18, that Russia “has its own national interests that must be taken into account and respected,” particularly along its borders? If the answer is no, as it has seemed to be since the 1990s—if Putin is correct in angrily protesting, “Only they can ever be right”—then war is possible, if not now, eventually. But if the answer is yes, proposals made by Putin’s foreign ministry on March 17 could be the starting point for negotiations.

    Briefly summarized, those proposals call for a US-Russian-EU contact group that would press for the immediate disarming of militias in Ukraine, as the Ukrainian Parliament ordered on April 1; a new federal constitution giving more autonomy to pro-Russian and pro-Western regions; internationally monitored presidential and parliamentary elections; a “neutral military-political” (that is, non-NATO) government in Kiev shorn of its extreme nationalist (some observers think “neofascist”) ministers; and maintaining Ukrainian-Russian economic relations essential to both countries. In turn, Moscow would recognize the legitimacy of the new government and Ukraine’s territorial integrity, thereby disavowing pro-Russian separatist movements well beyond Crimea, though without returning the annexed peninsula. It would also vote for a UN Security Council resolution affirming the settlement and, possibly, contribute to the multibillion dollars needed to save the country from financial collapse.

    The Obama administration’s reaction to Moscow’s proposals, which it has barely acknowledged publicly, is less than adequate. While accepting the need for some kind of federal Ukrainian constitution and a presidential election, the White House opposes new parliamentary elections, which would leave the existing Parliament strongly influenced, even intimidated, by its ultranationalist deputies and their armed street supporters, who recently threatened to impose their will directly by entering the building. Nor is it clear how fully Obama shares Putin’s concern that militias are further destabilizing the country. Meanwhile, the White House says Moscow should annul Crimea’s annexation (a nonstarter), remove its forces on Ukraine’s borders and recognize the unelected Kiev regime. Moreover, nothing the West has said suggests that it no longer intends to expand NATO to Ukraine; indeed, on March 31, NATO’s political chief, echoing Krauthammer from a decade ago, declared that the military alliance’s “task is not yet complete.” Still worse, Brussels may use the crisis to deploy troops deeper into Eastern Europe, toward Russia.

    Even if these differences narrow, would Putin be a reliable partner in such negotiations? “Demonization of Vladimir Putin,” Henry Kissinger recently wrote, “is not a policy.” Nor does it recall that the Russian leader has assisted US and NATO troops in Afghanistan since 2001; supported harsher sanctions against Iran in 2010; repeatedly called for “mutually beneficial cooperation” with Washington; generally pursued a reactive foreign policy; and, as a result, been accused by harder-line elements in his own political class of appeasing the West. (No, Putin is not an all-powerful “autocrat”; and, yes, there is a high-level politics around him.)

    Much, therefore, now depends on President Obama. He will have to rise to the kind of leadership capable of rethinking a twenty-year bipartisan policy that has led to disaster, and do so in Washington’s rabid anti-Putin, Russophobic atmosphere. There is a precedent. Three decades ago, America’s most Cold War president ever, Ronald Reagan, sensing in Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev enough in common, resolved to meet him halfway, despite protests by close advisers and much of his own party. Together, those two leaders achieved such historic changes that both believed they had ended the Cold War forever.
    Again, it was all avoidable with better diplomacy and a more conciliatory approach from the US lead west.

    However with the yanks, when they are at war with others, they are not at war with themselves.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=A Country Member; Prediction from a US - Russian relations expert from 8 years ago during the Obama years. Again, it was all avoidable with better diplomacy and a more conciliatory approach from the US lead west. However with the yanks, when they are at war with others, they are not at war with themselves.

      A most edifying contribution CM. -ISM wouldn't bother reading it of course but, hopefully, MR might take the trouble.

      Comment


      • Last week on a footy thread I warned about believing our US fed media and two major false MSM reports have recently illustrated the folly of doing so.
        * The false report that Russia had "attacked" Poland, a NATO member. The report has still not been entirely dropped, some outlets are still telling us it was a Russian "built" missile - Yeah, but launched by Ukraine.
        * The false report that Iran had sentenced 15000 protesters to death - another outright lie.
        The lesson is that Western media employs journalistic integrity in direct proportion to the perception of whether a country is a "friend" of the US. Standards go into free fall when the country reported on is seen as an enemy of the Empire.
        See? This is the kind of tripe that Salvo has spent a lifetime lapping up as have most people if truth be known. MSM cannot be trusted. It's not a voice from on high, in the West it is owned by individuals with agendas
        and here in OZ the individual has a near media monopoly.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paddo Colt 61 View Post
          Last week on a footy thread I warned about believing our US fed media and two major false MSM reports have recently illustrated the folly of doing so.
          * The false report that Russia had "attacked" Poland, a NATO member. The report has still not been entirely dropped, some outlets are still telling us it was a Russian "built" missile - Yeah, but launched by Ukraine.
          * The false report that Iran had sentenced 15000 protesters to death - another outright lie.
          The lesson is that Western media employs journalistic integrity in direct proportion to the perception of whether a country is a "friend" of the US. Standards go into free fall when the country reported on is seen as an enemy of the Empire.
          See? This is the kind of tripe that Salvo has spent a lifetime lapping up as have most people if truth be known. MSM cannot be trusted. It's not a voice from on high, in the West it is owned by individuals with agendas
          and here in OZ the individual has a near media monopoly.
          The latest report I read on this yesterday Still say it was a Russian made missile but launched by the Ukraine. Apparently now we have reporters inside the Polish Ukraine border where they are reporting the Polish still blame the Russians for this as it would not have happened if Russia had not started all of this

          Being of Polish descent and having spent time in Poland this would not surprise me as they still despised the Russians when I was there. But still the point being the media even though they have been caught out lying are now spinning another angle to somehow feed the masses by saying that a Ukrainian launched missile that ended up in Poland killing two Polish civilians is the fault of the Russians using Polish peasant farmers of limited intelligence who want blame the Russians
          When you trust your television
          what you get is what you got
          Cause when they own the information
          they can bend it all they want

          John Mayer

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Andrew Walker View Post

            The latest report I read on this yesterday Still say it was a Russian made missile but launched by the Ukraine. Apparently now we have reporters inside the Polish Ukraine border where they are reporting the Polish still blame the Russians for this as it would not have happened if Russia had not started all of this

            Being of Polish descent and having spent time in Poland this would not surprise me as they still despised the Russians when I was there. But still the point being the media even though they have been caught out lying are now spinning another angle to somehow feed the masses by saying that a Ukrainian launched missile that ended up in Poland killing two Polish civilians is the fault of the Russians using Polish peasant farmers of limited intelligence who want blame the Russians
            Media reporting is that it's an old, Russian-made missile that was fired by Ukranians at Russian missiles during a bombardment from Russia.

            Further, Biden was VERY careful not to implicate Russia in launching this one.

            Of course, the overall story is that if there was no Russian invasion... no missile woulda been launched in defence. Simple as that.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ism22 View Post

              Media reporting is that it's an old, Russian-made missile that was fired by Ukranians at Russian missiles during a bombardment from Russia.

              Further, Biden was VERY careful not to implicate Russia in launching this one.

              Of course, the overall story is that if there was no Russian invasion... no missile woulda been launched in defence. Simple as that.
              The old missile would have been fired as an act of aggression It certainly would not have been fired to defend against an incoming missile It is a war and who started it is now irrelevant in my eyes. Gotta say though it is a very special effort on the Ukrainians part to fire a missile West into Poland that was meant to head East towards Russia

              When you trust your television
              what you get is what you got
              Cause when they own the information
              they can bend it all they want

              John Mayer

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Andrew Walker View Post

                The old missile would have been fired as an act of aggression It certainly would not have been fired to defend against an incoming missile It is a war and who started it is now irrelevant in my eyes. Gotta say though it is a very special effort on the Ukrainians part to fire a missile West into Poland that was meant to head East towards Russia
                Incorrect.

                An expansionary dictatorship is trying to illegally take-over a country because they sacked a government that Russia had installed using foreign interference. Their 'secret hand' style failed abysmally so Vlad was like 'aaaw fark it I'm gonna stop pretending I have supporters over there and just invade'.

                It's a bloody mess, it's killed the stability that the global economy was starting to regain and it's entirely inappropriate for Vlad to continue invading. Any efforts to eject him are purely defensive as it's Ukraine's land and Russia has no right to be there (let alone be bombing them).
                Last edited by ism22; 11-22-2022, 08:08 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ism22 View Post

                  Incorrect.

                  An expansionary dictatorship is trying to illegally take-over a country because they sacked a government that Russia had installed using foreign interference. Their 'secret hand' style failed abysmally so Vlad was like 'aaaw fark it I'm gonna stop pretending I have supporters over there and just invade'.

                  It's a bloody mess, it's killed the stability that the global economy was starting to regain and it's entirely inappropriate for Vlad to continue invading. Any efforts to eject him are purely defensive as it's Ukraine's land and Russia has no right to be there (let alone be bombing them).
                  Get your hand off it. The global economy of the West in particular is reeling from continued lockdowns and the printing and giving away of money. This though gives those who implemented the above policies something for them to blame their failed policies economic policies on and the simpletons lap it up. For the record the inflation rate in Australia was 7 percent in 2021 In 2022 it currently sits at 7.3 percent In the USA from OCT 20-21 it was 8.2 percent OCT 21-22 it was 7.7. All much lower the previous few years This shows inflation has taken off well before Ukraine war, due to lockdowns and economic policy resulting from them But yes the simpletons lap it up when it is pointed at the war in Ukraine. PC can see straight through you and has you nailed to a tee
                  Last edited by Andrew Walker; 11-22-2022, 09:03 AM.
                  When you trust your television
                  what you get is what you got
                  Cause when they own the information
                  they can bend it all they want

                  John Mayer

                  Comment


                  • The basic point is that we can't trust the MSM to give us the truth on any issue that concerns the Empire or its "enemies" and we go to wars on the strength of that misinformation. Australians seem particularly vulnerable (or stupid). Polls indicate that 45% are prepared to go to war with China over Taiwan (or at least are keen that other Australians do so) whereas only 33% of Taiwanese think similarly. Are we the bozos of the world? Certainly looks like it. We've become inured to to fighting in other nations' wars.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paddo Colt 61 View Post
                      The basic point is that we can't trust the MSM to give us the truth on any issue that concerns the Empire or its "enemies" and we go to wars on the strength of that misinformation. Australians seem particularly vulnerable (or stupid). Polls indicate that 45% are prepared to go to war with China over Taiwan (or at least are keen that other Australians do so) whereas only 33% of Taiwanese think similarly. Are we the bozos of the world? Certainly looks like it. We've become inured to to fighting in other nations' wars.
                      And Joe Biden just turned 80.........................some people never learn.

                      Comment


                      • Yes we too easily sign ourselves up for other nation's wars. First it was the British Empire and then the US. I think we just don't want to upset the yanks as it's a better to be their friends than their enemy mentality? Maybe it's because we are so isolated from the rest of the world that we feel vulnerable? Maybe it's in our nature to be followers rather than leaders?

                        Comment


                        • Yes MR, all of those things plus we're racist at heart. Our authoritarian/convict past has affected us long term and we are inclined to respect the "voice of authority" unquestioningly be it "the government" in which the PM has the sole say on whether or not to go to war or the media which many of us seem to believe regardless of past experience.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paddo Colt 61 View Post
                            The basic point is that we can't trust the MSM to give us the truth on any issue that concerns the Empire or its "enemies" and we go to wars on the strength of that misinformation. Australians seem particularly vulnerable (or stupid). Polls indicate that 45% are prepared to go to war with China over Taiwan (or at least are keen that other Australians do so) whereas only 33% of Taiwanese think similarly. Are we the bozos of the world? Certainly looks like it. We've become inured to to fighting in other nations' wars.
                            1. When talking about countries, we speak of their governments. I've made it clear on multiple occasions that your average person living in [insert dictatorship] does not have views that align with the elite.

                            2. Like it or not, Russia is openly an enemy of five eyes countries. It regularly commits assassinations on five eyes soil, actively tried to influence a US election (arguably did so quite effectively) and is currently invading a neighbouring country as part of a failed plan to reunite the Soviet Union. We choose political allies based on shared values such as freedom of speech and the rule of law. This doesn't mean we can't have 'friends'... but Russia isn't exactly behaving like somebody we want to be friends with, is it?

                            3. Your 'smartest man in the room' claims don't stack up. Mainstream media has flaws (like anything) but it's diverse and the agendas are usually pretty darn obvious (e.g. Huff Post versus Forbes kinda stuff). Whereas johnmenadue.com is just a loony cache of anti-western opinions pieces. Fringe opinions columnists are not banned, arrested or tortured in 'the west'. Freedom of speech is alive and well... something I can't say the same for in regards to your mate Vlad's dictatorship.
                            Last edited by ism22; 11-22-2022, 04:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Like I say Izzy, the lurid claims that you echo all come from the MSM (aka US propaganda). Just because something is said over and over again doesn't make it true. Unless I can find solid unbiased evidence I don't believe anything that comes out of the MSM, there've been too many egregious lies. The Gulf of Tonkin "incident" which began the war in Vietnam was a US fabrication which led to an illegal invasion and you talk about me ignoring inconvenient "truths".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paddo Colt 61 View Post
                                Like I say Izzy, the lurid claims that you echo all come from the MSM (aka US propaganda). Just because something is said over and over again doesn't make it true. Unless I can find solid unbiased evidence I don't believe anything that comes out of the MSM, there've been too many egregious lies. The Gulf of Tonkin "incident" which began the war in Vietnam was a US fabrication which led to an illegal invasion and you talk about me ignoring inconvenient "truths".
                                The problem Comrade Paddo is that you quote sites /articles/books etc that correspond with your particular anti west/capitalist views and somehow consider it to be factual and any sites /articles/books etc that differ to your particular views as being US/West propaganda.

                                You need to take your pro Russia/China and Antic West/Capitalism glasses off

                                Your Little Legs Putin is oblivious to history though with his absurd claims that Ukraine is full of Nazi''s when in fact his beloved Moscow controlled Soviet Union were in bed as they say with Nazi Germany prior to the start of WW2 even.

                                August 23, 1939 -- Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union surprised the world by signing a nonaggression pact in Moscow that also contained a secret protocol carving up Eastern Europe into mutual spheres of influence. ( 2/3rd's to Russia and 1/3rd's to Germany) .

                                On 17 September 1939, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, 16 days after Nazi Germany Invaded Poland from the west.

                                Subsequent military operations lasted for the following 20 days and ended on 6 October 1939 with the two-way division and annexation of the entire territory of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.





                                Ribbentrop (Left) / Stalin (Middle) and Molotov (Right)

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