Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Random Rooster]

Ukraine and Israel share something in common as both are defending their nation and citizens from attack by criminal terrorist forces that want to destroy them.

All should realise that Putin doesn't accept that Ukraine is a separate state nor has it ever been a sovereign country and Hamas's manifesto is to destroy Israel and Kill All Jewish People Worldwide.

The real resistance is Ukraine and Israel.

The difference is one of them is committing genocide that's leading into ethnic cleansing.

"defending their nation and citizens from attack by criminal terrorist forces that want to destroy them" is very much the reason that Putin spins to justify his invasion of Ukraine. Kind of ironic that a conservative right wing American government is going to negotiate a win for Russia. I mean you know their mindset: Trump said last week " who knows one day Ukraine will be called Russia" while Sec of Defence Hegseth has ruled out Ukraine gaining back any land that Russia has taken over and that Ukraine will never be a member of NATO. Im sure a compromise will be presented as a win for both sides, but Trump will exploit Ukraines reliance on US support and will hand Putin a nice gift

Seems obvious that the previous left leaning US government were all for Ukraine while the tables have turned with the new right wing government. Im confused, isn't it the lefties that are communists?
Well i guess that while Trump wont be tough on Russia he will be tough on his allies, neighbours and paper straws. America first MAGA baby!

[Paddo Colt 61]

Interesting Randy but:

* Russia is not a Communist State anymore.

* The Nazi government of Ukraine is the result of a US orchestrated coup against a democratically elected government.

* The US never had any interest in Ukraine except as a NATO base on the border of Russia. That was the long term purpose of the coup.

* The USA and the UK pressured the Ukes into a proxy war to "degrade" Russian power - a fight to the last Uke as it were.

* Left leaning? The Democrats? Gotta be joking but you're right, they're war mongers, just look at Vietnam.

* The Ukes are now done. Another failed US enterprise leaving untold civilian and military dead for nil result.

[Random Rooster]

Interesting Randy but:

* Russia is not a Communist State anymore.

* The Nazi government of Ukraine is the result of a US orchestrated coup against a democratically elected government.

* The US never had any interest in Ukraine except as a NATO base on the border of Russia. That was the long term purpose of the coup.

* The USA and the UK pressured the Ukes into a proxy war to "degrade" Russian power - a fight to the last Uke as it were.

* Left leaning? The Democrats? Gotta be joking but you're right, they're war mongers, just look at Vietnam.

* The Ukes are now done. Another failed US enterprise leaving untold civilian and military dead for nil result.

Sorry Paddo i forgot that Russia was a run by a democratically elected leader that won 88% of the vote beating neville nobodies because any serious contender seems to fall out of 50th floor window.....but lets not go over old ground

The Ukrainians were toast as soon as Trump won the election. You can tell by Trumps conciliatory tone toward Putin that he has effectively surrendered. Europe is no longer a priority for America, nor are their allies. Its America first and the rest can go f themselves.

Pressured into a proxy war? Ukraine were quite happy to let Russia take over, or at least make a deal, but the USA and UK forced them into defending themselves? If that sounds a bit ludicrous that's because it is. Making Ukraine a NATO country could have been fast tracked 9 years ago and the NATO bases you speak of would have been a done deal. However you can have a million NATO bases surrounding Russia, but to do what? With Russia's nuclear capability attacking them is suicide- you dont think the NATO countries know that?

If i was a European country id be following UK and France in having their own stockpile of nuclear weapons. Quite a few European countries host American nuclear bases....but as i said Europe can no longer rely on the US.....just ask the Canadians! If Ukraine didn't give up their nuclear weapons in 1994 in exchange for useless security guarantees (guarantees that included from both Russia and the US), you could be sure that Russia wouldn't have put a toenail across the border

[Paddo Colt 61]

Sorry Paddo i forgot that Russia was a run by a democratically elected leader that won 88% of the vote beating neville nobodies because any serious contender seems to fall out of 50th floor window.....but lets not go over old ground

The Ukrainians were toast as soon as Trump won the election. You can tell by Trumps conciliatory tone toward Putin that he has effectively surrendered. Europe is no longer a priority for America, nor are their allies. Its America first and the rest can go f themselves.

Pressured into a proxy war? Ukraine were quite happy to let Russia take over, or at least make a deal, but the USA and UK forced them into defending themselves? If that sounds a bit ludicrous that's because it is. Making Ukraine a NATO country could have been fast tracked 9 years ago and the NATO bases you speak of would have been a done deal. However you can have a million NATO bases surrounding Russia, but to do what? With Russia's nuclear capability attacking them is suicide- you dont think the NATO countries know that?

If i was a European country id be following UK and France in having their own stockpile of nuclear weapons. Quite a few European countries host American nuclear bases....but as i said Europe can no longer rely on the US.....just ask the Canadians! If Ukraine didn't give up their nuclear weapons in 1994 in exchange for useless security guarantees (guarantees that included from both Russia and the US), you could be sure that Russia wouldn't have put a toenail across the border

I usually find something in your posts that I agree with Randy but not in this case.

* You agree that Russia is no longer a Communist state. The rest is Western /US propaganda ie No evidence and I'm sorry but "Awwwww.....everyone knows" doesn't cut it as evidence. They know because they are brainwashed to Pavlovian heights.

* The Ukes were certainly not happy to let Russia "take over". The whole purpose of the Maidan Coup was to set up a hostile state in the ongoing US attempt to degrade Russia. The overthrown democratically elected government rejected NATO and the EU. Governments represent the majority of people.

* 9 years ago there was a civil war there, the East V West which had balked at the prospect enduring under a Fascist usurper bent on imposing Ukrainian Nazism and any move to NATO would have and did lead to the current status quo. You're also off the mark with the Kiev agreements. Merkel revealed that the West was just playing for time in order to build the Uke's defences. Double dealing West!

* Disappointing to find that you're for Nuclear proliferation - you think that's the answer?

[King Salvo]

The difference is one of them is committing genocide that's leading into ethnic cleansing.

"defending their nation and citizens from attack by criminal terrorist forces that want to destroy them" is very much the reason that Putin spins to justify his invasion of Ukraine. Kind of ironic that a conservative right wing American government is going to negotiate a win for Russia. I mean you know their mindset: Trump said last week " who knows one day Ukraine will be called Russia" while Sec of Defence Hegseth has ruled out Ukraine gaining back any land that Russia has taken over and that Ukraine will never be a member of NATO. Im sure a compromise will be presented as a win for both sides, but Trump will exploit Ukraines reliance on US support and will hand Putin a nice gift

Seems obvious that the previous left leaning US government were all for Ukraine while the tables have turned with the new right wing government. Im confused, isn't it the lefties that are communists?
Well i guess that while Trump wont be tough on Russia he will be tough on his allies, neighbours and paper straws. America first MAGA baby!

No Genocide at all

Gaza population has risen from around 80,000 in 1948 to around 2.2 million in 2024. by 2050 it is forecasted to be around 4.7 million.

mmm Hamas's manifesto is to destroy Israel and Kill all Jewish People world wide which of course is genocide intent - have you not seen their officials saying this time and time again whilst hiding in Qatar with their stolen multi Billions - Hamas said time and time again they wanted all Palestinians to be martyrs and fight on to the last Palestinian - They refused to allow civilians to use that extensive tunnel system as this was for Hamas only - why was that - they wanted maximum casualties.

The European Jewish population pre 1933 - around 9.5 million compared to the European Jewish Population of around 3.5 million in 1950 - that was a genocide

[Random Rooster]

I usually find something in your posts that I agree with Randy but not in this case.

* You agree that Russia is no longer a Communist state. The rest is Western /US propaganda ie No evidence and I'm sorry but "Awwwww.....everyone knows" doesn't cut it as evidence. They know because they are brainwashed to Pavlovian heights.

* The Ukes were certainly not happy to let Russia "take over". The whole purpose of the Maidan Coup was to set up a hostile state in the ongoing US attempt to degrade Russia. The overthrown democratically elected government rejected NATO and the EU. Governments represent the majority of people.

* 9 years ago there was a civil war there, the East V West which had balked at the prospect enduring under a Fascist usurper bent on imposing Ukrainian Nazism and any move to NATO would have and did lead to the current status quo. You're also off the mark with the Kiev agreements. Merkel revealed that the West was just playing for time in order to build the Uke's defences. Double dealing West!

* Disappointing to find that you're for Nuclear proliferation - you think that's the answer?

As i said i dont want to go over old ground but i can't turn a blind eye to the very very long list of people who have dared to oppose Putin that have met with a very unfortunate death. Democracies dont have autocratic leaders. Trump has found himself a perfect role model and as i predicted numerous times in this thread, will hand Putin victory. In exchange for what we will have to see

Its very simple, In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for assurances from Russia, the United States and United Kingdom to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. You cannot rewrite history but you can obviously go back on your agreement

Name a country with nuclear warheads that has been invaded by another. You think Russia would have crossed the border if Ukraine was still the 3rd biggest holder of nuclear weapons? You think the US would have invaded Iraq if they had nuclear missiles? It may sad that it has come to this but its reality.

[Random Rooster]

No Genocide at all

Gaza population has risen from around 80,000 in 1948 to around 2.2 million in 2024. by 2050 it is forecasted to be around 4.7 million.

mmm Hamas's manifesto is to destroy Israel and Kill all Jewish People world wide which of course is genocide intent - have you not seen their officials saying this time and time again whilst hiding in Qatar with their stolen multi Billions - Hamas said time and time again they wanted all Palestinians to be martyrs and fight on to the last Palestinian - They refused to allow civilians to use that extensive tunnel system as this was for Hamas only - why was that - they wanted maximum casualties.

The European Jewish population pre 1933 - around 9.5 million compared to the European Jewish Population of around 3.5 million in 1950 - that was a genocide

Well if you want to go back to 1933 then Israel should be invading Germany.

What is happening right now is 100% genocide. Quoting Gaza population sizes from 1948 to now means zilch. I didn't agree with Israel entering Palestine, but at the same time i never thought they would create the devastation that they have. To even entertain the idea of shipping out the Palestinians to build a oasis for yourself is just despicable- putting a positive spin on ethnic cleansing wont stop you being the target for terrorism for decades to come but it will, and already has, create a never ending fertile environment for terrorists groups to recruit foot soldiers.

For some reason you seem to think that eliminating Hamas down to the very last member will wipe out the threat of terrorism for Israel. It will have the opposite effect. Bibi doesn't care too much for Israel long term- he is 75 and like Trump wont be around in 20 years. He just doesn't want to be remembered for his monumental failures in defending Israel on October 6. He thinks turning Gaza into a oasis for Israelis will be his legacy ( or as Trump put it "people will live there,the worlds people". Yeah right). Netanyahu may have banned international reporters from Gaza, but he couldn't ban videos being taken on phones of the atrocities the IDF have and are committing . He may have banned Al Jazeera from being broadcasted in Israel, but not the rest of the world. He could have hindered all the worlds leading aid agencies from entering Gaza, but he couldn't silence them from telling the world about his actions.

Israel and their citizens deserve better

[King Salvo]

Viktor Yanukovych, after being elected Ukraine's President in 2010, was an advocate for economic modernisation, increased spending and continuing trade negotiations with the EU (Hence the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement (Political association and free trade agreement), so what happened to the Moscow Man ? Mmm,

One of the front-runners for 2010 is Viktor Yanukovych, the man whom Russia backed five years ago, and who eventually turned out the loser in the Orange Revolution.

Today, he is trying hard to shed the image of being "Moscow's man".

At a meeting with international businessmen at the US Chamber of Commerce, he told the BBC that much had changed since 2004

Yanukovych said, "Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim", with a "balanced policy, which will protect our national interests both on our eastern border –– I Mean with Russia – and of course with the European Union",

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8391317.stm

mmm Governments represent the majority of the people Capitalist Paddo Says

The majority of Ukrainians wanted closer ties with Europe. The Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine Parliament) took the wishes of the majority of Ukrainians on board and voted overwhelmingly for the finalisation and signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement (Political association and free trade agreement).

Ukraine President, Pro Russian Viktor Yanukovych, under pressure from Russia, reneged on signing this agreement and then sought closer ties with Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union, i.e. against the wishes of the majority of Ukrainians , the Ukrainian Parliament and even Yanukovych himself one might add.

Hence, why there was the Revolution of Dignity/Maidan Revolution in February 2014, which was the largest democratic mass movement seen in Europe since 1989.

Yanukovych and his deputy Mykola Azarov both fled Ukraine and both received political refugee status in Russia on the personal instructions of Vladimir Putin. - Both are on International /Ukraine wanted lists.

Post Revolution of Dignity/Maidan Revolution

Russia took advantage of the "power vacuum" after the Revolution of Dignity/Maidan Revolution in February 2014 by sending in Russian Special Forces without insignia's to annexe the Crimea in March 2014 - replacing the democratically elected Crimea Parliament/Government with the the pro-Russian Aksyonov government.

Russia also started the war/conflict in the Donbas by arming , supporting and funding Pro Russian Paramilitary Militias - That war started in April 2014 when Russian-backed militants headed by Russian citizen Igor Girkin seized towns in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region and proclaimed the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and the Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) as independent states.

We all know about the so called "referendums" held in the Crimea and Donbas - not even Capitalist Paddo's China recognises Russia's annexation of Crimea and Donbas nor South Ossetia either - everyone knows these were sham ones.

Russian then invaded Ukraine on 24 February 2022 in an attempt to reinstall a Pro Russian Government in Kyiv and nothing less- Only uneducated folk would argue otherwise - Putin has often said that Ukraine didn't exist as a separate state and has never been a nation.

https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter...-putin-513812/





KYIV, UKRAINE: Hundreds of thousands protest in KYIV against Viktor Yanukovych not signing the EU agreement.






15.12.2013 | The Sunday protest meeting on Independence Square Kyiv Ukraine broke all records as to the number of participants. Taken from the roof of the Trade Union building. Photo by Konstantin Chernichkin

[Paddo Colt 61]

Talkk are proceeding between the US and Russia re the future of Ukraine. The Ukes aren't aa party to those talks. Already we know that NATO membership is off the tableas is a return to the borders of 2014. This alone tells the story of this war. It was part of the US's world domination chess game.

The killer point is that the US Treasury is negotiating with Zelensky re US access to Ukraine's considerable mineral wealth. The deal is to pay for the proposed US supplied security shield. The Ukes have been bled, shredded and now strip mined by their buddies, Why on Earth are we in an alliance with the USA with that example to wake us up?

[Rooster1908]

Talkk are proceeding between the US and Russia re the future of Ukraine. The Ukes aren't aa party to those talks. Already we know that NATO membership is off the tableas is a return to the borders of 2014. This alone tells the story of this war. It was part of the US's world domination chess game.

The killer point is that the US Treasury is negotiating with Zelensky re US access to Ukraine's considerable mineral wealth. The deal is to pay for the proposed US supplied security shield. The Ukes have been bled, shredded and now strip mined by their buddies, Why on Earth are we in an alliance with the USA with that example to wake us up?

Who should we be in a alliance with?and yes Ukraine has been done over by both sides but you continue to be all over the yanks and leaving the Russian alone .

[King Salvo]

Capitalist Paddo's knowledge of his beloved Russia , Ukraine and even his beloved China could be written on the back of a postage stamp with room to spare.

Nothing whatsoever to do the with the US and West and all down to his beloved Putin - The Annexations of the Crimea and Donbas in 2014 and the Invasion of Ukraine in 2022 was for a reason - especially what is underground

Capitalist Paddo still can't get his head around what his beloved Putin said and say's about Ukraine i.e never a state or a nation etc

Here's more - According to Putin, the modern-day Ukraine occupies historically Russian lands,^[and is an " anti-Russia project" created by external forces since the seventeenth century, and of administrative and political decisions made during the Soviet Union. i.e "modern Ukraine was wholly and fully created by Bolshevik, communist Russia"

Wow Ukraine is an anti-Russia Project created by external forces since the seventeenth century i.e the 1600's

Ah yes some more of Capitalist Paddo's beloved Putin delusional visions "gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together—in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians ( A historical term to describe Ukrainians)

mmm if Belorussians ever got rid of Putin's Puppet Lukashenko and elected a pro west/Europe government they would be invaded next for certain. - you can hear Putin now "they are Nazi's etc and Belorussia was always traditional Russian Lands and Belorussia was never a state nor a nation and is an "anti-Russia project created by external forces from the sixteenth century and oh by Bolshevik Communist Russia.

Capitalist Paddo with his uneducated views say's why are we are in an alliance with the US re- the minerals. The US will be paying for these minerals though - Military and Financial Support whereas Capitalist Paddo's beloved Putin will just steal these minerals which was the one of the two main reasons for the Russian land grab in Ukraine. The other one was to reinstall a pro Russia Government in Kyiv as anyone could see.

Nazi's and NATO was a smoke screen used by Capitalist Paddo's beloved Putin for the annexations and the invasion of Ukraine - it was always about a Ukraine land grab and more importantly for what was below it.

Capitalist Paddo's obviously has no idea where Ukraine's mineral resources are ( metals/precious metals/rare earth metals etc) - 53% of these are located in the 4 regions illegally annexed by Russia in 2014 and 2022.

A little over £6 trillion of Ukraine’s mineral resources, which is around 53 per cent of the country’s total, are contained in the four regions Mr Putin illegally annexed in September 2022, and of which his army occupies a considerable swathe.

That includes Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, though Kherson holds little value in terms of minerals.

The Crimean peninsula, illegally annexed and occupied by Mr Putin’s forces in 2014, also holds roughly £165 billion worth of minerals.

The region of Dnipropetrovsk, which borders the largely occupied regions of Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia, and sits in the face of an advancing Russian army, contains an additional £2.8 trillion in mineral resources.

Russian difficulties with major military operations seem likely to preclude a serious attempt to take the region but mining operations in the area would be perilous with Moscow’s soldiers so close.

Other ores are well within the sites of Russia’s forces. One lithium ore on the outskirts of a settlement called Shevchenko in Donetsk is less than 10 miles from the town of Velyka Novosilka, recently captured by Mr Putin’s troops.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2693202.html

[Paddo Colt 61]

Confusion must abound in the minds of the simpletons whose insights into world affairs are formed solely by our right wing msm.

* Biden, was staunch in his "defence of freedom"willing, it would appear, to fight to the last Uke and now the "defence" is down the toilet. Turns out we weren't winning after all. We were told exactly the same sort of lies about Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan where the US threw its mates under the bus but we still believed. There was however one significant victory for "freedom"- the US and Al Qaeda together did the job on Syria toppling a elected government which was too close to Russia. And yez don't see chicanery?
Ordinary Ukes suffered because they believed the CIA TV station with its Orange revolution claptrap. We believe (it seems) ol' Rupert, a nefarious old rogue with form that should ordinarily put him beyond the pail.

* Russia is not to blame for the war but it, too, has suffered greatly. It's war is/was against the Empire, the Ukes were simply the flunkies and most of them knew it. Russia warned about NATO moving up to its borders but the US was having none of that. And why is a belligerent NATO still around anyway? The Warsaw pact is long finished.

* Some on here, who really don't know much about anything after many, many years of the Murdoch press and commercial TV indoctrination just can't see past the propaganda consumption of a lifetime. I cite '08's touching plea, "Who should we be in an alliance with?". The confusion in that question is palpable. It's called Cognitive Dissonance - facts and reality clashing with long, deeply held beliefs formed on the basis of very little in the case of most ordinary people. The fact is that the US is an highly unreliable security partner only interested (surprise, surprise) in its own national interests. Our ANZUS Alliance is an "agreement to consult" if one is threatened - no guarantee whatsoever but most people think otherwise and they also think that we are "good mates" and in a special category. That is if they ever think about it which is very unlikely.

* Security is a Tory thing - indispensable for the last 120 years for frightening that moron bunch that elects them after believing their supporters, Murdoch and othe news organs owned by the rich. Our security, if we are serious and worried, is security within Asia not from it - The Keating Doctrine - and that, hopefully, might happen after Trump finally wises up the meatheads with regard to true reality. Unlikely, however, because our power elite thrives on division.

[ism22]

Well if you want to go back to 1933 then Israel should be invading Germany.

What is happening right now is 100% genocide. Quoting Gaza population sizes from 1948 to now means zilch. I didn't agree with Israel entering Palestine, but at the same time i never thought they would create the devastation that they have. To even entertain the idea of shipping out the Palestinians to build a oasis for yourself is just despicable- putting a positive spin on ethnic cleansing wont stop you being the target for terrorism for decades to come but it will, and already has, create a never ending fertile environment for terrorists groups to recruit foot soldiers.

For some reason you seem to think that eliminating Hamas down to the very last member will wipe out the threat of terrorism for Israel. It will have the opposite effect. Bibi doesn't care too much for Israel long term- he is 75 and like Trump wont be around in 20 years. He just doesn't want to be remembered for his monumental failures in defending Israel on October 6. He thinks turning Gaza into a oasis for Israelis will be his legacy ( or as Trump put it "people will live there,the worlds people". Yeah right). Netanyahu may have banned international reporters from Gaza, but he couldn't ban videos being taken on phones of the atrocities the IDF have and are committing . He may have banned Al Jazeera from being broadcasted in Israel, but not the rest of the world. He could have hindered all the worlds leading aid agencies from entering Gaza, but he couldn't silence them from telling the world about his actions.

Israel and their citizens deserve better

Bingo. And honestly, there's no point in trivialising it.

It's all rich men's power games. No invasion is a good invasion. Normal people's lives are lost/destroyed/displaced purely to appease power players who will never have to suffer any consequences. All these 'leaders' are dual citizens who will have a private jet to safety if shyte hits the fan. Others will be treated as the problem when they complain about displacement and get on boats, trying to find a new home.

There's no point arguing it on here as there's too much spam and white noise. These are basic concepts though and anybody who's struggling with them is either doing so wilfully due to political allegiances or they're a little bit basic. Either way, engaging with them is a waste of time as discussions will go nowhere.

[King Salvo]

Well if you want to go back to 1933 then Israel should be invading Germany.

What is happening right now is 100% genocide. Quoting Gaza population sizes from 1948 to now means zilch. I didn't agree with Israel entering Palestine, but at the same time i never thought they would create the devastation that they have. To even entertain the idea of shipping out the Palestinians to build a oasis for yourself is just despicable- putting a positive spin on ethnic cleansing wont stop you being the target for terrorism for decades to come but it will, and already has, create a never ending fertile environment for terrorists groups to recruit foot soldiers.

For some reason you seem to think that eliminating Hamas down to the very last member will wipe out the threat of terrorism for Israel. It will have the opposite effect. Bibi doesn't care too much for Israel long term- he is 75 and like Trump wont be around in 20 years. He just doesn't want to be remembered for his monumental failures in defending Israel on October 6. He thinks turning Gaza into a oasis for Israelis will be his legacy ( or as Trump put it "people will live there,the worlds people". Yeah right). Netanyahu may have banned international reporters from Gaza, but he couldn't ban videos being taken on phones of the atrocities the IDF have and are committing . He may have banned Al Jazeera from being broadcasted in Israel, but not the rest of the world. He could have hindered all the worlds leading aid agencies from entering Gaza, but he couldn't silence them from telling the world about his actions.

Israel and their citizens deserve better

We know which side of the fence you are on when it comes to Israel/Jewish Folk. - Never a bad word about Hamas - mmm interesting

Ridiculous statement that Israel should have attacked Germany -Germany Surrendered in 1945 and was Partitioned into 4 zones. - Israel didn't exist again as a country until 1948.

In 1948 Israel was first invaded by a host of Arabic/Islamic Counties and assorted Islamic Terrorist groups after the Arabs rejected the 2 state solution - Egypt, Trans Jordan. Syria , Iraq , Lebanon , Saudi Arabia, Yemen , Arab Liberation Army , al-Najjada and Holy War Army - Strange now that the Arabs want the 2 state solution - mmm should have thought about that in 1948 then

You mean the fake Pallywood ones where the so called victims "actors" then appear in other video's i.e like MR FAFO.

https://www.opindia.com/2023/11/mr-f...ody-sometimes/

Al Jazeera is nothing more than a mouth piece for Islamic Jihadist Terrorists and Terrorism as any one knows

[Paddo Colt 61]

Bingo. And honestly, there's no point in trivialising it.

It's all rich men's power games. No invasion is a good invasion. Normal people's lives are lost/destroyed/displaced purely to appease power players who will never have to suffer any consequences.

It's like Vietnam, which I have a personal connection to.
- WWII resulted in Vietnam being occupied by Japan. The USA liberated them and Japan reformed its ways.
- The USA gave power to the old emperor as president of Vietnam.
- USSR (which was way bigger back then), China and North Korea (which was richer than South Korea back then) didn't like this so gave Ho Chi Minh a heap of money, AK-47's and napalm / noxious gasses so that he could conquer the north (which borders on China) and install a puppet, 'Communist' government.
- The USA and allies came in saying 'WTF... you can't just take over a country like this!!! If you want power then the CORRECT way is to win an election, not to invade!!!'
- The USA and allies sent troops onto the ground to make sure Saigon (the capital of Vietnam) would not fall to the China/USSR/North Korean backed 'Communists'.

Jeez...well I certainly don't agree with any of this Izzy. Again you ignore History and the implication is that the US is a "white knight.

The facts are:

* During the war, the Japs booted the French imperialists but were then met by Viet Nationalists who were ambitious with the French gone after 120 years, wanting the Japs out too. Western adherents like the local wealthy, corrupt establishment, mostly Catholic, then fought for Japan against their own countrymen.

* After the war, the West wanted the French to return. The returned French got their arses kicked and the winners (Nationalists) organised plebiscites with the goal of independence from colonialism. The USA then supported the pro Colonial South in its resistance to that referendum sensing that Ho Chi Minh was going to prevail. All of this time the Viet Minh were Nationalists who, rejected by the West, sought help from anyone and found it in the anti Imperialists, China and the Soviets. Thus the self fulfilling prophecy - " See! They're Commos".

* You seem to suggest that restoring the old Emperor and the corrupt South was a good and reasonable thing? Hundreds of thousands had died fighting France and the old order in the country. and you think that Jap henchmen were fine?

* I presume you "served"? Sorry, forgot, that your FIL is a top ranking General who hates the Government and loves the US. Vietnam was an egregious racist war and a shameful chapter in our history. Menzies invoked ANZUS and begged the US to be able to join in. Like all involvements since, it was an installment on our ANZUS insurance policy. The US refused to help us in the East Timor peacekeeping, the only time we've asked.

* I parked behind a car festooned with US style Viet Veteran stickers and military symbols and, disgusted at the suburban triumphalism, I wrote a critical screed and stuck it on the window. Gave him a real bollocking for being proud of being a sucker and participating in a racist war fought solely for US global interests. After a short while, the silly old fart returned - arse out of his pants with the predictable tats and old grey beard and ponytail. He read my script and peered around myopically, confused and bewildered - a dead set mug playing hero. My brother was out of the draft a week after he got the notice. The local GP attested that he had chronic Rhinitis - an everyday thing. Easy peasy and so he avoided the draft and the possibility of killing the "enemies" of the US.