Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Random Rooster]

Public opinion in the Global South sympathises with Russian rationale re the war - that it is the result of an existential crisis brought on by the spectre of US/NATO military expansion to the Russian border. Russia is/was simply defending the status quo and the people of the GS see that.

Your simple UN head count of support is iffy and lacks nuance to say the least. Each South nation's official position is not clearly condemnatory of Russia. Many went along with the UN "motherhood" resolution, after all the US is a world hegemon, but they did not condemn, mirroring the public opinion in their countries. The only lot who are balls deep are Western vassal states of the US and they (including OZ) now look like egregious fools. Whipped into line originally only to have the rug pulled out now.

Your claim is a "looks like" proposition based on official numbers. It's not unlike the proposition that the US is the champion of "freedom". To many it "looked like that" but clearly wasn't.

Really, in this country the grievous embarrassment is the Libs/MSM fault. Since way back, the ALP has been wedged over National Security. It's a complete beat up as I've explained in the past but it has a long history as an electoral plus because Mugsville buys it and always has. When in gov, the ALP attempts to restrict "Defence" spending (or did once) but the risk in doing that is serious given our mendacious right wing media's reach, so on major issues it seeks, or is wedged into, uniformity with the Right.

What Trump has done is lifted the benign mask off the face of Empire, showing the world its true colours and leaving the media/Libs with no clothes on. The realisation should at least upset our internal mania with defence exposing, as it does, the total hypocrisy of Uncle Sam. But it probably won't.

Already media hacks are calling for greater defence spending here at the bottom of the World in the absence of any US guarantees - a sort of go-it-alone derring do, middle finger reaction in the face of US perfidy. Little Ozzy punching above its weight again. A sentiment that Jaxie, 08 and Sal might applaud seeing they'd never have to fight - intelligence issues would prevent them enlisting. Anyway, best to leave the rough stuff to John Wayne who, at this moment is hopefully being thawed at some Cyronics warehouse. Come the moment, come the man eh Jax.

Cmon Paddo how does a "simple head count" of the UN seem "iffy" but your 90% of the world sympathises with Russia is legit? I mean even if you said it was fifty ftfty id want to see some real proof on that- but 90% is just pigs flying out of thin air stuff. Here is a study by Cambridge Uni that may give a better balance on how the world views affairs.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/worlddivided

Having said that im pretty much with you on everything else. Whilst i always maintained that the US meddling in others world affairs, such as they have in the middle east, has been the source of much of the worlds instability, i admit that i was wrong on how low the US can go.

I guess while MAGA supporters are strutting around like alpha males, events like last nights disastrous media conference helps take the spotlight off the House Republicans voting to advance a budget resolution that slashes Medicaid funding by nearly $1 trillion to provide tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy and big corporations, paving the way for even deeper cuts of up to $2 trillion that would strip health care from tens of millions of Americans. Seems like the bill forgot to include abolishing tax on tips, overtime and social security. Oh well,bad luck

[King Salvo]

It's all connected as Putin has said many times " that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” - "It was a disintegration of historically Russia under the name of the Soviet Union,"

What do you think that means plus when Putin says that "Ukraine didn't exist as a separate state and had never been a nation and that Ukrainians are Russians" - That goes back to the Soviet Union times when Ukrainians were known as "Little Russians"

The above was said many times by Putin and his Stooges before the Russian Invasion of Ukraine - 2014 ( Crimea and Donbass) and 2022 ( Full Invasion of Ukraine)

There has been many attempts to bury what's left of Lenin ( mostly plastic of sorts now) too but he is still there - I have viewed him a few times - It's like Russia can't move ahead and still need to cling onto the past - there has been a concerted effort to "rehabilitate" Stalin as well - white washing the Gulags/executions/Purges/ Collectivisation forced famines ( i.e Holodomor in Ukraine)

Impossible to reform the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact Block to the way it was as none of the countries(Majority i.e not under Kremlin control ) would ever want to revisit that period.

Russia controls Belarus despite Lukashenko being the "President" - Belarus was formerly known as Belorussia or White Russia - mmm that Russia reference again - What would happen if Belarus folk booted out Lukashenko and elected a pro West/Europe Government- Russia would no doubt would invade it too. - sure highly unlikely as like Putin Lukashenko has any opponents/opposition eliminated.

I remember when Russia and Belarus signed the Treaty on the Creation of a Union State i.e - a common head of state, legislature, flag, coat of arms, anthem, constitution, army, citizenship and currency. Attempts were made for others to sign on - Ukraine and Kazakhstan for example.

None ever did and quite rightly so.

An Eurasian economic Union was later formed comprising of Armenia , Belarus, Kazakhstan , Kyrgyzstan and Russia - a somewhat mini EU but controlled by Russia - more politically driven - all roads lead to Moscow/Kremlin.

All too convenient for Putin to say it's NATO and Nazi's as we have heard that before.

Did Putin attempt to invade Sweden and or especially Finland when they were applying to join NATO- No - Helsinki is around 300 Km's from St Petersburg with the 5th largest border with Russia - 1271.80 km's - Ukraine 1925.80 km's - Mongolia - 3485.00 km's - China - 4209.30 km and Kazakhstan the largest - 7512.80 km's




https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...er-russia.html

Putin said there were "Nazi's" in Chechnya ( 2 Wars) , plus Dagestan ( squash the independence from Russia movement ) plus Georgia ( illegally annexation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia ) and of course Ukraine.

All these have something in common - Chechnya and Dagestan independence ( wanted to breakaway from Moscow/Kremlin's Iron Grip) - Georgia and Ukraine elected pro West and Europe Governments ( Russia backed the pro Russian Militias and of course sent in the little green men ( Neo Nazi Wagner) - Illegal Annexation of Crimea and the Donbas)

Putin's ongoing concern is losing control of the "Stans" and so called "Independent" Russian republics who often advocate for full independence - Folk in Russia want independence too - Siberian Independence Movement for an example - fuelled not least by the unequal distribution of revenue from the regions rich oil and minerals resources.




The Russian Duma said the average salary in Russia per month is 791 USD (1274.27 AUD) - Videos show average wages in regions at around 216 USD or less per month (347.99 AUD)

If a regional person is receiving 216 USD (347.99) per month then a person in Moscow and or St Petersburg must be receiving 1366 USD ( 2200.74 AUD) per month for this average of 791 USD ( 1274.27 AUD)

Where did or does the money go - certainly not much to the regions or in salary and pension rises across the board - Putin sitting on a lazy 200 Billion USD of Assets plus of course the Oligarchs and Regional Governors get their cut as well.

Ah yes Authoritarian and Totalitarian regimes get rich schemes - the higher you are up in the regime the more you can make. -mmm very Soviet Union Like

[mightyrooster]

The White House clash is hilarious (Is that what you refer to Randy?) not so much in bewildered Zel trying to talk logic to a pair who didn't want to listen but in the popular reaction on X. Just days ago their masses (and ours) were firm in their misguided belief that this war was good v evil writ large - Russia was evil full stop. The Randy/MR/08/Salvatore/Issy line. Now the American X posters and the masses I would suggest have turned 360, turning on the hapless Nazi Uke leadership who were duped into sacrificing their young people on the basis of US ambitions and false promises. We now need to see Zelenski as the bad guy which he is in fact and the sheeple will instantly fall into line. Confused maybe but happy to reset their "opinions". It's a difficult one for our msm.

What is surprising is that the Euros want to continue war mongering when peace is offered. It's a good line from Trump.

You’ve misrepresented me again on this subject. I have always maintained that the US does meddle in other countries business way too often and make out it is doing so for the good of everyone when in actual fact it is only looking after itself, while attempting to maintain its power status. I have then said multiple times that two wrongs don’t make a right and just because I don’t trust the US on what’s happening in the Ukraine because they have helped contribute to the instability there in the first place, does not make Putin some sort of saint or hero. I have sad this repeatedly but you only chose to focus on my Putin hatred instead of my dislike for US foreign policy. Which is why I gave up on this thread.

Trump has pretty much proven why you cannot trust the US. While Putin is still an egomaniac, just like his buddy Trump.

[King Salvo]

You’ve misrepresented me again on this subject. I have always maintained that the US does meddle in other countries business way too often and make out it is doing so for the good of everyone when in actual fact it is only looking after itself, while attempting to maintain its power status. I have then said multiple times that two wrongs don’t make a right and just because I don’t trust the US on what’s happening in the Ukraine because they have helped contribute to the instability there in the first place, does not make Putin some sort of saint or hero. I have sad this repeatedly but you only chose to focus on my Putin hatred instead of my dislike for US foreign policy. Which is why I gave up on this thread.

Trump has pretty much proven why you cannot trust the US. While Putin is still an egomaniac, just like his buddy Trump.

No Involvement at in all in the removal of the Yanukovych/Azarov Government in 2014 - Russian propaganda the same as the Nazi's excuse they use to invade countries and annex regions and oh NATO as well - that was purely done by the Ukraine Citizens.

We know folk on the ground in Ukraine at the time closer to the events and Mrs Salvo's of course knows them better and for longer than me- There was no CIA folk running around organising protests and what not at all pure fantasy - we were in Chernivtsi at the time - Mid December to Mid January - Russia the last 2 weeks of January and 1st week of February. - Russian TV was on full propaganda mode.

Throw in

• Government Corruption
• Abuse of Power
• Oligarch influence - Ukraine has them too - the old privatisation voucher scheme as I mentioned before
• Police Brutality
• Human Rights Violations
• Repressive Anti Protest laws
• Restoration of the 2004 Ukraine Constitution

It boiled down to the failure of Yanukovych to sign the Political and Free Trade Agreement with the EU which was the catalyst or last straw - The Majority of Ukraine Citizens wanted it and the Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine Parliament) voted overwhelming to finalise it - Yanukovych under pressure from Moscow/Kremlin/Putin didn't sign it

The EU and US sent Diplomatic folk to Ukraine to meet with Yanukovych to convince him to negotiate a peace deal - Hardly the stance of folk supposedly behind the Revolution of Dignity/Maidan Revolution one would say.

The brokered peace deal by the EU/US involved Yanukovych signing a measure to return Ukraine to it's 2004 constitution - In 2010, Yanukovych restored the country's 1996 constitution, which hands greater power to the presidency. - No removal of him as President was part of this brokered peace deal

Of course Yanukovych failed to sign the measure and after a period of calmness he sent in the riot police - 82 people killed and over 1.100 injured. The protesters reformed in supporting the restoration of the 2004 Ukraine Constitution.

The Verkhovna Rada ( Ukraine Parliament) signed a decree condemning the use of force and for all Institutions to cease immediately all military actions against protesters.

Yanukovych knew the gig was up and fled the country - first saying he had resigned - then when in Russia ( Granted Political Asylum by Putin ) he rescinded the resignation and stated that any new elections would be Illegal as he was still the President. - The New Ukraine Government has issued a warrant for his arrest

The Verkhovna Rada ( Ukraine Parliament) voted 328 to 0 to remove Yanukovych from office - so did the the US/EU make them vote that way. Of course not

Of course Russia took advantage of this as we all know backing and arming Pro Russian Separatists and sending in the little green men ( Neo Nazi Wagner) to illegally annexe the Crimea and Donbas.

[Andrew Walker]

Cmon Paddo how does a "simple head count" of the UN seem "iffy" but your 90% of the world sympathises with Russia is legit? I mean even if you said it was fifty ftfty id want to see some real proof on that- but 90% is just pigs flying out of thin air stuff. Here is a study by Cambridge Uni that may give a better balance on how the world views affairs.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/worlddivided

Having said that im pretty much with you on everything else. Whilst i always maintained that the US meddling in others world affairs, such as they have in the middle east, has been the source of much of the worlds instability, i admit that i was wrong on how low the US can go.

I guess while MAGA supporters are strutting around like alpha males, events like last nights disastrous media conference helps take the spotlight off the House Republicans voting to advance a budget resolution that slashes Medicaid funding by nearly $1 trillion to provide tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy and big corporations, paving the way for even deeper cuts of up to $2 trillion that would strip health care from tens of millions of Americans. Seems like the bill forgot to include abolishing tax on tips, overtime and social security. Oh well,bad luck

Disastrous media conference I thought it was glorious Trump put Zelensky well and truly in his rightful place

Now as for the reporter asking Zelensky Why he doesn’t wear a suit I say Bravo bravo bravo As it is something I’ve always wondered

[Random Rooster]

Disastrous media conference I thought it was glorious Trump put Zelensky well and truly in his rightful place

Now as for the reporter asking Zelensky Why he doesn’t wear a suit I say Bravo bravo bravo As it is something I’ve always wondered

Russia and their allies would agree with you Andy. Not that America's allies needed to be told where they stood with Uncle Sam, but the message has been well and truly rammed home now. Europe and Canada no longer see the US as the leader of the free world- maybe they never were but the US certainly don't have many friends left from the old alliances.

Wonder why that reporter didn't ask why a unelected person can show up to the oval office for a media conference to address the nation dressed in a t-shirt, a baseball cap and with his kid that was picking his nose and wiping it on Trumps desk. Same guy showed up at the first Republican cabinet conference dressed in the same garb. Somehow that's not disrespectful?

Maybe Paddo is right, Trump is showing the world Americas true colours.

As per usual, The Lincoln Project seem to nail it for what it really is....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_mZbrbm9g

[ism22]

Trump looked old and defeated towards the end. You could see his face was an 'old man' red (he wears the orange to hide it), he could no longer talk coherently and it was almost as if he was having a stroke. He slumped forward, looking quite sick (wouldn't surprise me if he has a serious stroke during his term - I'm not convinced his health will hold up as he's obese and lacks stamina outside highly planned media appearances). His hands are tied because he's a Russian sell-out. Everybody knows he sold himself to Russia to prevent himself from going bankrupt. Now the Russian Mafia expect him to follow through with their deeds and he's just a stupid old man with no morals or principles as a result... behaving like a lap dog to putin when the USA's way more powerful that Russia... all over his comparatively meagre private wealth situation.

Foolish Vance (a nobody local politician who sold his values to be VP because nobody else wanted to run with Trump) then tried to pretend he could be an attack dog. WOOF... WOOF... kiss the ring or get out!!! This war wouldn't have started if President Trump was around!!! He saved you and you should be gracious (he knows this was all BS so while he could get angry, there was no compelling argument).

Zelenskyy calmly gave him a factual lesson on how Russia invaded Crimea before Trump's presidency and was gradually attacking various parts of the east all throughout Trump's first presidency. Vance (knowing this was true) looked back thinking 'WTF am I doing?!? Nobody told me this would be part of the job!!! I'm an idiot and a sell-out.'

The next day Zelenskyy's gone to the UK and now Europe where he's secured unconditional support. Strategically the USA cannot (and will not) raise weapons against Europe. Herein lies Vlad's problem... he can bribe a foolish, bankrupt man who's sad about losing daddy's money... he can even help prop the guy up in a presidential campaign... but he's still not a strategic ally. He's on his own there (not even China will put boots on the ground for him).

[ism22]

PS - I hate being smugly correct but who was it that said the pro-Russian BS wasn't left-wing, it's a Trump and Putin thing (which you'll now see all through 'the MSM' for that reason).

So minus the MSM's Pro-Trump propaganda what's going on. As Joe Biden said on his last day... 'is that a joke'?

[Rooster1908]

Disastrous media conference I thought it was glorious Trump put Zelensky well and truly in his rightful place

Now as for the reporter asking Zelensky Why he doesn’t wear a suit I say Bravo bravo bravo As it is something I’ve always wondered

My brother's got a black an' white picture
With numbers 'cross his chest
An' he'll do 15 years if his behavior stays at it's best
He took the blame to save his best friends name
When a job that went bad down in Birmingham
Yeah, but he don't mind that orange suit cause he knows that clothes don't make the man
Two cells down from where my brother lays his head
The walls that go Amazing Grace an' quotes of scriptures that man once read
When he prayed upon the little souls of all those boys that did not understand
But you can wear a robe that's laced with gold
But The Clothes Don't Make The Man
Designer names
Rips and stains
Shouldn't tell you who I am
Cause sometimes angels hid their wings
An' the Devil's dressed like a lamb
Yeah, The Clothes Don't Make The Man
They all laughed an called him names when he said that he was sent to be their king
You don't even own a home
You've got simple clothes an' sandals on your feet
Stripped of his pride
He was crucified
On a cross with nails of haterd in his hands
But he rose from the grave in 3 days
Yeah, The Clothes Don't Make The Man
Designer names
Rips and stains
Shouldn't tell you who I am
Cause sometimes angels hid their wings
An' the Devil's dressed like a lamb
Yeah, The Clothes Don't Make The Man
Designer names
Rips and stains
Shouldn't tell you who I am
Cause sometimes angels hid their wings
An' the Devil's dressed like a lamb
Yeah, The Clothes Don't Make The Man
They don't make the man
They don't make the man
They don't make the man
Woo...
Yeah...
Whoa, don't make the man
Don't make the man, yeah
Ohh...
Yeah-eahh...

[Paddo Colt 61]

Can't agree with you Iz. The Mafia claim is conspiratorial and desperate.

* Vance was chosen because of the success of his "autobiography" a right wing working class epic in which a young proletarian keeps the American Dream alive in a home of unending horrors. It's the exception that disproves the generalisation that there's nothing for workers in voting for Republicans. Self reliance, upward mobility and following one's dreams, whatever those were, remained a reality in an otherwise hell hole and JD is here to prove that. American bullshit. Other than that, yes, he was a political neophyte.

* The whole White House episode was a crude ambush and the poor bugger didn't know what hit him though he should have, given the "Dictator" smeer of last week. Has there ever been a "conference" with an ally engaged in a war that was open to the media and so obviously aimed revving up masses? Instantly, they made him the enemy - amazing - accusing him of everything that the US was actually responsible for. The breathtaking feature was the exercise in naked power, the frankness and tone was unmistakable - "you'll continue to do what we say sucker, now fcuk off!". The humiliation was over the top - "Haven't you got a suit?", "What's the cosplay all about?", You've disrespected this hallowed ground!".

* On the other hand, beneath it all Trump spoke truth of a kind. Clearly the war is lost, the Ukes have a crippling manpower problem but Fascists, like the western Ukes installed by the US, are of the fanatical death before dishonour type and, like Hitler, they expect the country to collectively die fighting for some weird nationalistic (Fascist) ideology that most wouldn't share. Trump said that he'd assessed Zel and found him to be fanatical and bent on risking WW3. To keep backing him would "embolden" him and the fascist regime. All true but also true that the US set the Ukes up for this proxy war, or the Dems and the security services did.

* The long time Russophobic Euros will never be able to forge a pact to continue flogging a dead horse. Europe is nowhere near that united, the US is its guarantor and individually they're not going to waste more treasure on what is a lost cause and was from the get go.

* The reaction of our flunkies will be interesting. Albo looks like he's wanting an OZ led offensive - that's how powerful our msm is. "Brainwashed" is apt and our population is infantile in that respect. Even sophisticates like Randy write about "leader of the free world" whatever that is supposed to mean. A loaded emotive term that so many accept without an atom of thought. The Libs, of course, are completely dismayed and have no idea what to do given that their campaign managers at Newscorp are such fawning supporters of Trump. I haven't watched any Sky to see how they're handling it. Anyone notice any changes there?

[Andrew Walker]

I do not see and old and defeated man here I see Zelensky well and truly being put in his place

[Jacks Fur Coat]

I do not see and old and defeated man here I see Zelensky well and truly being put in his place

Yep...we see strength and being a leader. It's a concept we've become unaccustomed to with recent democratic countries "leaders" being so woke and weak. I think the conference went for around 45 minutes and the President was mostly patient and amicable. The Trump haters are only watching the finale online grabs.

[Random Rooster]

I do not see and old and defeated man here I see Zelensky well and truly being put in his place
]

Nah its definitely a fat old defeated narcissist caked in a ton of makeup caked on that goes into a tantrum when someone doesn't bow down to kiss his ringhole. Vance really let it slip when he said to Zelinsky that he "campaigned for the opposition in Pennsylvania last year" . Trumps full on rant kissing Putins arse and declaring how much they had to go through because of the Biden administration was totally irrelevant and embarrassing. It was easily the biggest government media disaster in American history

[Random Rooster]

Yep...we see strength and being a leader. It's a concept we've become unaccustomed to with recent democratic countries "leaders" being so woke and weak. I think the conference went for around 45 minutes and the President was mostly patient and amicable. The Trump haters are only watching the finale online grabs.

So you agree that Russia wasn't the aggressor in this war? Its Ukraine to blame for it being ongoing by defending themselves on Ukraine soil. Its fair enough for America to charge its allies for any military aid they provide in exchange for no security guarantees?

Maybe it's because you like fat old white racist men who need to pretend they are alpha males in adult diapers because they are really spineless an weak?

[Andrew Walker]