Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

Putin wants one of two things -Ukraine becomes part of Russia or Controlled by Russia - Using NATO is a smokescreen

Bingo. There's no 'western propaganda'... Russia's an expansionary dictatorship that's been angling towards taking over the Ukraine for decades (if not longer).

This is what expansionary dictatorships do... try to expand their political influence in their region & slowly takeover countries by destabilising them.

Side note my wife's from a Vietnamese background and at uni, Chinese international students ALWAYS tried to convince her that Vietnam's part of China (they also showed her maps from the schooling that did not include a border). It's yeah... what Russia and China are doing to all their neighbours on a constant basis.

We're not spreading bullshyte as part of some western conspiracy. Rather, we're lucky to have a decent geographical buffer + a heap of other economies (side note, we're roughly the same size as Russia, we just don't get involved in all the aggressive geopolitical cr@p / sabotage they do... Indonesia will soon be significantly larger than Russia as an economy, so I personally think they're scared of losing relevance).

[Paddo Colt 61]

Ho hum....a typically uncritical parroting (I can't possibly say "analysis") of the international geopolitical situation. Unforch, compliments of rabid US media, it is also a popular view.

Russia "an expansionary dictatorship angling to take over the Ukraine for decades" sits oddly with the fact that Khrushchev conceded it autonomy making the "the" Ukraine region Ukraine he fledgling nation. The present situation is the result of US meddling since the end of the Cold War and its broken assurances that the NATO alliance which it leads would not advance to the Russian border. (Russia has he right to be concerned about its security surely).

"This is what expansionary dictatorships do... try to expand their political influence in their region & slowly takeover countries by destabilising them" is an apt description of the US in the 20th Century od do you really believe that Uncle Sam is a force for good? Try telling that to the Iraqis or the Afghans or any number of nations in South America. The US is a rapacious hegemon which consumes 40% of the planet's natural resources.

The wife's chats with a lot of young people on campus means what exactly? For 2000 years China was the centre of the universe in Asia. Its sheer reach, power and gravitational pull meant that neighbours wanted, indeed relied, on being part of the action. There was no coercion - they paid annual respect (Tribute) if they wanted to retain the benefits.

Don't know what to make of the final paragraph but in the process of winning the war 1939 - 1945, pretty much single handedly, Russia lost up to 50 million dead and suffered unimaginable destruction to its national assets. Many of its neighbours (all fascist at the time) took part in that - Romania, Hungary, right wing elements in Ukraine. Surely Russia would want to avoid any repeat of that? It's their security that is their concern.

After Colin Powell's assurances that WMDs were a "fact" how can we possibly have any faith in US Intelligence services?

[Paddo Colt 61]

I don't know what to make of Putin but I do know that any objective view has been obliterated by Western propaganda. There are far more objective views on the Net which provide a better focus. Theconversation.com has, currently, a very fair assessment of the Ukraine "crisis".

My impression is that Vlad is playing the West of a break at this point. There will be no invasion despite US provocation but in maintaining the possibility he is making fools of US intelligence which has already made two predictions, both wrong and the more they ratchet up the fear the more credibility will be forfeited.

Just as effective is the economic effect on the Ukraine whose leaders are already complaining of Western overreach in evacuating embassies etc ( We, Australia, have joined in that folly as well). Their tourism industry is stuffed and, already an economic basket case, the future is dire what with gas supply and other trade with Russia. It's leaders are saying that Western interference is more of a threat than is the Russian border concentration.

The West has overplayed its hand, hence the incessant demonising. Maybe if we were told the truth, that the US has already established missile bases in Poland and has carried out military exercises in the Baltic States, our collective opinion would be more balanced. Whatever, my view is that Putin will force a return to the Minsk agreement and will emerge the bluff meister.

[Big Dog]

Yes all those allegations against him made by Murdochs New York Post and Donald Trump leading up to the 2020 election. Of course it amounted to absolutely nothing as there was zero proof.

Incidentally have you been keeping up with the deaths in Australia from the covid-19 vaccines on the governments TGA website? By your counting by now there would be more deaths because of the vaccine than there is from Covid itself!!

Yes, over 108,000 adverse reports and 760 deaths.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

Bingo. There's no 'western propaganda'... Russia's an expansionary dictatorship that's been angling towards taking over the Ukraine for decades (if not longer).

This is what expansionary dictatorships do... try to expand their political influence in their region & slowly takeover countries by destabilising them.

Side note my wife's from a Vietnamese background and at uni, Chinese international students ALWAYS tried to convince her that Vietnam's part of China (they also showed her maps from the schooling that did not include a border). It's yeah... what Russia and China are doing to all their neighbours on a constant basis.

We're not spreading bullshyte as part of some western conspiracy. Rather, we're lucky to have a decent geographical buffer + a heap of other economies (side note, we're roughly the same size as Russia, we just don't get involved in all the aggressive geopolitical cr@p / sabotage they do... Indonesia will soon be significantly larger than Russia as an economy, so I personally think they're scared of losing relevance).

Fair points Ism22.

I think our extremist troll fella would be screaming "western propaganda!" as communist ideologues were nailing his head to a coffee table..

[Random Rooster]

Yes, over 108,000 adverse reports and 760 deaths.

Yes thought so! Lucky you're on the ball! Report your findings to Paul Murray Live...its needs to be exposed

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Jacks Fur Coat; I think our extremist troll fella would be screaming "western propaganda!" as communist ideologues were nailing his head to a coffee table..

It really doesn't warrant responding to because it is the retreat to emotional language that is stock in trade for the dumb arse opinionistas on Sky. Unfortunately, however, emotion always trumps reason as the latter requires a dispassionate examination of issues that is well beyond most even if they had the interest.

The Greeks recognised it 2500 years ago - Socrates urged us to be incessantly sceptical but Thucydides observed that most people believe the first opinion that they hear.

Recently, a Sociologist described the Convoy to Canberra as being pretty much Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi, Anzac and a dash of Jesus - were you one of the interviewees Jax?

[ism22]

Ho hum....a typically uncritical parroting (I can't possibly say "analysis") of the international geopolitical situation. Unforch, compliments of rabid US media, it is also a popular view.

Right so Vietnam's now part of the west? Dude my wife's dad literally works for the Vietnamese communist party and he shares these views about Russia/China. But I guess he's just a western puppet, not a proud Vietnamese nationalist who's worried about his own country being taken over by regional bullies.

Further, you say I just read the 'western' media. I speak multiple languages (including Japanese, Vietnamese and Italian). I read news in these languages daily and have lived in Japan for a substantial chunk of my life. These regional tensions are not a product of the US meddling in other people's affairs (again... father-in-law is a communist who went through the Vietnam War... big fan of the USA, ay?) They're very much fears that are held within the regions.

All I can say is that living in an old fishing cottage that overlooks the Japan Sea and having beers with the (mixed-race) locals (mostly fishermen who regularly went on long, commercial fishing trips around the region) taught me a lot more than listening to Putin/Jinping propaganda. That or I dunno... many dinners out with Vietnamese communists where they get drunk on the local turps. IMO your claim that regional fears are an invention of 'western' propaganda is complete bollocks.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Let's now consider the latest round of demonisation of Putin's Russia by the West. My source is Tony Kevin, former Australian ambassador to Poland (might he have more credibility than our MSM (including the ABC) and Western "Intelligence" that gave us WMDs?).

In recent time the US has given the Ukraine city destroying heavy weaponry and its use has proved irresistible to the Nazi tinged Ukrainian army, active in the Russian majority Donbass region, which recently declared itself independent of Ukraine. With a European report of increased shelling on February 19, and the prospect of mass ethnic cleansing and millions of refugees Putin had little choice but to protect its Russian people abroad.

Accusations of a breach of Ukraine sovereignty are true but the West is breathtakingly hypocritical on that score. When have there been sanctions on Israel for its illegal annexation of the Golan Heights (Syrian Territory), Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Golan Heights is possible only with US support. What sanctions on Turkey for its illegal annexation of Northern Cyprus since 1974? The US and Britain routinely flout Syrian independence - no sanctions there either. And, of course, the biggie, the illegal and catastrophic invasion of Iraq. So much for the "International Rules Based order", American rules of course.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=ism22; Right so Vietnam's now part of the west? ......Further, you say I just read the 'western' media. I speak multiple languages (including Japanese, Vietnamese and Italian). I read news in these languages daily and have lived in Japan for a substantial chunk of my life. All I can say is that living in an old fishing cottage that overlooks the Japan Sea and having beers with the (mixed-race) locals.

Mmmmm.....Vietnam is presently negotiating security arrangements with the US. Enough said.

Japan was guilty of a genocidal war against China from the late 30s and has been, since 1945 a virtual US puppet state and is still ruled by the Samurai class. It also accommodates hostile US bases. In the circumstances you might expect that they'd be concerned.

I'm trying hard to see the relevance of your sit downs with the local fishermen blessed with all that geopolitical savvy. They're scared? Folks everywhere are scared, they're revved up by by increasingly rabid US media. Surely you're not suggesting that Japan does not take its cue from US media? Wouldn't the local fishermen be like the locals in the pubs here - know nothings who are more likely to join convoys to Canberra especially if they were small businessmen an' all - just sayin'

China has for millenia now been the Asian hegemon. It is now ringed by US military bases including those in Japan, South Korea and the giant base at Diego Garcia. US warships patrol its coastline under the bullshit concern for freedom of the seas all the more ludicrous because the US hasn't ratified that same treaty (couldn't have Chinese warships off the Florida Keys could we?) If you are a host to a hostile power and you were an ordinary fella you'd be entitled to feel somewhat uneasy I'd imagine, I'm frightened about the prospect of my grandchildren caught in some future conflict on behalf of US interests.

[ism22]

LOLz we have a Souffs supporting, pro-Russia/China expansionist in an Easts forum. Curious why you chose us.

PS - learn to quote properly you fruitloop. It's not working because you always type over the '[/QUOTE]' at the end of your quotes. Manually add it if you REALLY can't work out how to not type over it.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

[QUOTE=ism22;n918763]LOLz we have a Souffs supporting, pro-Russia/China expansionist in an Easts forum. Curious why you chose us.

That's been my point since his emergence on this site Ism....why us??

I'm thinking we might be in 'paid troll' country....likely inhabits many sites.

[mightyrooster]

PC, you are correct in saying that US foreign policy and political interference and manoeuvres in other nations’ business often causes more harm than good. The U.S. manipulation of the media is also first class. But to suggest poor little Vlady Putin and the charming Jinping are innocent victims of the big bad USA is just a bit too ridiculous. They are two of the most dangerous, narcissistic leaders, dare I say dictators, we’ve seen on the world stage for a long time in my opinion.

[mightyrooster]

Oh and as if Russia and China don’t manipulate the media as well. They actually go one better and censor it, or in the case of China ‘disappear’ those who use the media to speak against the ‘correct’ party line.

[Paddo Colt 61]

You're a long way gone MR but there's some hope yet. You observe that the US manipulates opinion but then you proffer the lurid comic images that Western media has traded in since the fanged King Kong image of Kaiser Bill and well before.

Certainly Putin's manipulation of the media doesn't pay off with Western media but in terms of censorship you might care to know that the Right wing Ukraine regime shut down 3 newspapers and imprisoned the opposition leader and members of the opposition party. This is findable on the Net but never mentioned by the MSM.

I've chosen youse -ism because I'm a lifelong Tricolour fan albeit not an uncritical one. On enrolment I found some of the commentary trite and dull and sometimes politically tinged particularly on this forum when, as an alternative, vigorous discussion was an option since 85% have no interest in something as important as politics and why would they, given the stenography that passes for media? It is the former teacher in me.

Sad to see that you have descended to name calling -ism. I presume that you're not at the Bar.