Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

You're a long way gone MR but there's some hope yet. You observe that the US manipulates opinion but then you proffer the lurid comic images that Western media has traded in since the fanged King Kong image of Kaiser Bill and well before.

Certainly Putin's manipulation of the media doesn't pay off with Western media but in terms of censorship you might care to know that the Right wing Ukraine regime shut down 3 newspapers and imprisoned the opposition leader and members of the opposition party. This is findable on the Net but never mentioned by the MSM.

I've chosen youse -ism because I'm a lifelong Tricolour fan albeit not an uncritical one. On enrolment I found some of the commentary trite and dull and sometimes politically tinged particularly on this forum when, as an alternative, vigorous discussion was an option since 85% have no interest in something as important as politics and why would they, given the stenography that passes for media? It is the former teacher in me.

Sad to see that you have descended to name calling -ism. I presume that you're not at the Bar.

1. Something something Russia is currently bombing the Ukraine as we speak. A full scale invasion is unravelling despite Russia's insistence that it wasn't going to invade. Guess that's just the west spinning it though and Vlad's really the victim in all this. As Vlad said, there's a 'peaceful' solution if Ukranian soldiers will just go home to their families and stop defending their country. I guess you'd be totally cool with it if I stopped you and said 'excuse me good sir... not here to be violent or nothing... can you please pack-up your house and hand me the keys so that we can avoid a fight? I'm a pacifist... y'know... a lover not a fighter... so I'd be really disappointed if you were to put me in an uncomfortable position where this here fist somehow be beating you senseless ay. That's a good man... send my regards to the Mrs and kids, it's nothing personal or anything ay. Just trying to make sure things remain peaceful around this neighbourhood between you and me'.

2. Apologies that my line of work is a sore spot for you. As noted elsewhere, I'm a shyte lawyer and I'm currently taking ~6 months of leave to look after my mental health as I'm worn out from the pressures of work/life. What of it? At least I don't support Souff & Vlad's bloodshed in the Ukraine.

[mightyrooster]

You're a long way gone MR but there's some hope yet. You observe that the US manipulates opinion but then you proffer the lurid comic images that Western media has traded in since the fanged King Kong image of Kaiser Bill and well before.

Certainly Putin's manipulation of the media doesn't pay off with Western media but in terms of censorship you might care to know that the Right wing Ukraine regime shut down 3 newspapers and imprisoned the opposition leader and members of the opposition party. This is findable on the Net but never mentioned by the MSM.

I've chosen youse -ism because I'm a lifelong Tricolour fan albeit not an uncritical one. On enrolment I found some of the commentary trite and dull and sometimes politically tinged particularly on this forum when, as an alternative, vigorous discussion was an option since 85% have no interest in something as important as politics and why would they, given the stenography that passes for media? It is the former teacher in me.

Sad to see that you have descended to name calling -ism. I presume that you're not at the Bar.

I’m a long way gone? But there’s still hope for me yet? I must make an appointment with my GP soon by the sounds of it. You really do like stirring the pot don’t you PC?

[mightyrooster]

1. Something something Russia is currently bombing the Ukraine as we speak. A full scale invasion is unravelling despite Russia's insistence that it wasn't going to invade. Guess that's just the west spinning it though and Vlad's really the victim in all this. As Vlad said, there's a 'peaceful' solution if Ukranian soldiers will just go home to their families and stop defending their country. I guess you'd be totally cool with it if I stopped you and said 'excuse me good sir... not here to be violent or nothing... can you please pack-up your house and hand me the keys so that we can avoid a fight? I'm a pacifist... y'know... a lover not a fighter... so I'd be really disappointed if you were to put me in an uncomfortable position where this here fist somehow be beating you senseless ay. That's a good man... send my regards to the Mrs and kids, it's nothing personal or anything ay. Just trying to make sure things remain peaceful around this neighbourhood between you and me'.

2. Apologies that my line of work is a sore spot for you. As noted elsewhere, I'm a shyte lawyer and I'm currently taking ~6 months of leave to look after my mental health as I'm worn out from the pressures of work/life. What of it? At least I don't support Souff & Vlad's bloodshed in the Ukraine.

No no you have it all wrong ism.. Vlad is just bluffing……

[Paddo Colt 61]

Fellas, Fellas.....

I'm sorry ism that you've misinterpreted my reference to the Bar. I was referring to name calling being no substitute for reasoned argument. I was disappointed is all. If it's any comfort I too would have been a "shite lawyer" and so I never practised except on my own behalf. The avarice was also a turnoff.

A post or two back I mentioned that independent European security had reported increased shelling in the Donbass including the suburbs of Donetsk, increased incursions by units such as the notorious Azov Battalion (think SS) and Ukraine Special forces incursions into neighbouring Rostov region. In response the Russian majority regions on the border declared their independence which Russia greenlighted and backed up with a guarantee of protection which has resulted in the current situation - this is not an "invasion" of all of the Ukraine, it is a limited action to protect a Russian population on the Russian border.

US intransigence on militarising the Ukraine is at the bottom of this. When diplomacy fails war is the usual end game - the US broke guarantees, stifled French and German initiatives, set up missile bases in neighbouring newly enrolled NATO countries and waved away Russian concerns for its security. Do we just ignore these facts?

[ism22]

Fellas, Fellas.....

I'm sorry ism that you've misinterpreted my reference to the Bar. I was referring to name calling being no substitute for reasoned argument. I was disappointed is all. If it's any comfort I too would have been a "shite lawyer" and so I never practised except on my own behalf. The avarice was also a turnoff.

A post or two back I mentioned that independent European security had reported increased shelling in the Donbass including the suburbs of Donetsk, increased incursions by units such as the notorious Azov Battalion (think SS) and Ukraine Special forces incursions into neighbouring Rostov region. In response the Russian majority regions on the border declared their independence which Russia greenlighted and backed up with a guarantee of protection which has resulted in the current situation - this is not an "invasion" of all of the Ukraine, it is a limited action to protect a Russian population on the Russian border.

US intransigence on militarising the Ukraine is at the bottom of this. When diplomacy fails war is the usual end game - the US broke guarantees, stifled French and German initiatives, set up missile bases in neighbouring newly enrolled NATO countries and waved away Russian concerns for its security. Do we just ignore these facts?

Lay off the dakka bruh.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Again, the intemperate display ungentlemanly and low brow. Malcolm Fraser, in declining years, wrote a book warning us about being too close to the USA - Dangerous Allies - yep, that's THE Malcolm Fraser.

PS Sorry about dissing your Fishing mates.

And generally, our God bothering Minister for Communications, Stuart Robert has banned SBS from taking and broadcasting Russian News and Russia Today. So much for freedom of the press. Claims it's not independent! Does he mean independent like Newscorp? What we're now only allowed propaganda from one side? We're not at war with them ffs.

[Andrew Walker]

I’m a long way gone? But there’s still hope for me yet? I must make an appointment with my GP soon by the sounds of it. You really do like stirring the pot don’t you PC?

Yes you would be close to due for your second booster shot by now

[Paddo Colt 61]

Cognitive dissonance is a psychology term which describes the mental experience of a person (or group of people) with firmly held beliefs when those belief come up against a set of inconvenient facts. We are, all of us, surrounded by a narrative that contrasts Western good intention (with occasional mistakes) with a comic demonisation of others. Though often untrue, those images and the propaganda that accompanies them is very hard to resist and even highly intelligent people are taken in by it. Those who furnish our mindsets are very good at what they do.

How do people handle cognitive dissonance? They could accept the facts and amend their deeply held convictions in the light of them but that is rarely the case. Mostly, they will deny the facts often becoming hostile and inclined to shoot the messenger.

Our media (heavily dependant on US and British sources) simply ignores the facts and presents a one sided narrative. News Corp is a player of course and so is unreliable in the extreme but we should expect more from the ABC. It has featured Tony Kevin, the ex diplomat and Russia expert, on the Big Ideas show recently (Radio National Big Ideas) but the News, Current affairs has omitted to provide any context for what we are witnessing in Ukraine. There's an excuse for invasion of another country, the preservation of national security and the US has cited that in Iraq and Afghanistan, We heard a different narrative then of course - they were "good" invasions. In the case of Ukraine we hear no mention of the US assurance - "Not one inch" toward the East followed by enrolling Russian neighbours in NATO and setting up missile bases in those territories, no mention of the flouting of the Minsk agreement and no mention of the US militarizing the Ukraine despite Russian concerns for its national security and for the 50% of the population that is culturally Russian.

[mightyrooster]

Yes you would be close to due for your second booster shot by now

Um….?

[4 the all in brawl]

Cognitive dissonance is a psychology term which describes the mental experience of a person (or group of people) with firmly held beliefs when those belief come up against a set of inconvenient facts. We are, all of us, surrounded by a narrative that contrasts Western good intention (with occasional mistakes) with a comic demonisation of others. Though often untrue, those images and the propaganda that accompanies them is very hard to resist and even highly intelligent people are taken in by it. Those who furnish our mindsets are very good at what they do.

How do people handle cognitive dissonance? They could accept the facts and amend their deeply held convictions in the light of them but that is rarely the case. Mostly, they will deny the facts often becoming hostile and inclined to shoot the messenger.

Our media (heavily dependant on US and British sources) simply ignores the facts and presents a one sided narrative. News Corp is a player of course and so is unreliable in the extreme but we should expect more from the ABC. It has featured Tony Kevin, the ex diplomat and Russia expert, on the Big Ideas show recently (Radio National Big Ideas) but the News, Current affairs has omitted to provide any context for what we are witnessing in Ukraine. There's an excuse for invasion of another country, the preservation of national security and the US has cited that in Iraq and Afghanistan, We heard a different narrative then of course - they were "good" invasions. In the case of Ukraine we hear no mention of the US assurance - "Not one inch" toward the East followed by enrolling Russian neighbours in NATO and setting up missile bases in those territories, no mention of the flouting of the Minsk agreement and no mention of the US militarizing the Ukraine despite Russian concerns for its national security and for the 50% of the population that is culturally Russian.

Hence why are so many residents of the Ukraine taking up arms to repel the Russian invaders???

Whether they are culturally Russian is irrelevent, the fact Russia is attempting to occupy Ukraine (a foreign sovereign nation) or overthrow an elected govt to install a puppet regieme which takes orders from Vlad himself, or using the pretext that as since the 1990s, Nato had kept moving towards Russia does not excuse Putin of trying to sort out the problems in a diplomatic manner.

I suspect Vlad has always wanted the Ukraine as it was the jewel in the Soviet Union's crown, I also think if he gets away with invading Ukraine he will try to annex other former Soviet States.

Vlad thinks he is Peter the great but he is not........the only legacy he will leave is the memory of a bloodthirsty wannabe tyrant....

As for Trump, he has to take some of the blame in this mess, after all he gutted NATO's and restricted spending for NATO from the USA, turned everyone against each other in the west. He also did Putins bidding while he was president and also withdrew military funding to an extent from Ukraine. To make matters worse the USA have now got an incompetent and impotent president in sleepy Joe.....

[4 the all in brawl]

BTW, I havent got my booster shot yet........

[Andrew Walker]

You should You must keep yourself and more importantly others safe.

By the way. War is peace.

[King Salvo]

Interesting the comparison with History- seen this film before

My patience is now at an end', Hitler speech demanding Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia - Supposedly Ethnic Germans lived in Sudetenland

By recognising the separatist areas controlled by Russian proxies as independent, Mr Putin was telling the world they were no longer part of Ukraine - they are Russian

Ditto for these areas - Ethnic Russians - many not born in Russia same as the Ethnic Germans in Sudetenland not born in Germany either.

On March 12, 1938, German troops march into Austria to annex the German-speaking nation for the Third Reich. In early 1938, Austrian Nazis conspired for the second time in four years to seize the Austrian government by force and unite their nation with Nazi Germany.

On February 24 2022 - By air, land, and sea, Russia has launched a devastating attack on Ukraine, a European democracy of 44 million people, and its forces are on the outskirts of the capital, Kyiv.

In interviews and speeches, Mr Putin has previously emphasised his view that Ukraine is part of Russia

[Andrew Walker]

It seems many of our resident experts on epidemiology over the last two years have overnight turned into foreign affairs experts as well. This site is truly privileged to have people with such diverse qualifications knowledge and wisdom

[King Salvo]

Cognitive dissonance is a psychology term which describes the mental experience of a person (or group of people) with firmly held beliefs when those belief come up against a set of inconvenient facts. We are, all of us, surrounded by a narrative that contrasts Western good intention (with occasional mistakes) with a comic demonisation of others. Though often untrue, those images and the propaganda that accompanies them is very hard to resist and even highly intelligent people are taken in by it. Those who furnish our mindsets are very good at what they do.

How do people handle cognitive dissonance? They could accept the facts and amend their deeply held convictions in the light of them but that is rarely the case. Mostly, they will deny the facts often becoming hostile and inclined to shoot the messenger.

Our media (heavily dependant on US and British sources) simply ignores the facts and presents a one sided narrative. News Corp is a player of course and so is unreliable in the extreme but we should expect more from the ABC. It has featured Tony Kevin, the ex diplomat and Russia expert, on the Big Ideas show recently (Radio National Big Ideas) but the News, Current affairs has omitted to provide any context for what we are witnessing in Ukraine. There's an excuse for invasion of another country, the preservation of national security and the US has cited that in Iraq and Afghanistan, We heard a different narrative then of course - they were "good" invasions. In the case of Ukraine we hear no mention of the US assurance - "Not one inch" toward the East followed by enrolling Russian neighbours in NATO and setting up missile bases in those territories, no mention of the flouting of the Minsk agreement and no mention of the US militarizing the Ukraine despite Russian concerns for its national security and for the 50% of the population that is culturally Russian.

Are you one of Putin's script writers or one of many propagandist attempting to justify the unjustifiable

" this is not an "invasion" of all of the Ukraine, it is a limited action to protect a Russian population on the Russian border."

You must have a different map as Kyiv is not on the Russia Border or has a majority Russian population

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-...utin/100865580

"US intransigence on militarising the Ukraine is at the bottom of this" -

Gees if US are doing that Ukraine must be waiting for all this military equipment as they hardly have any in comparison

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...litary-forces/


Bottom line is Putin does not recognise Ukraine as a sovereign country - say's it's part of Russia.

The invasion is about overthrowing a democratically elected government and installing a pro Russian backed puppet Government like in Chechnya /Georgia for an example in an attempt to re-instate their former cold war era influence in Eastern and Central Europe.