Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[mightyrooster]

Yes you would be close to due for your second booster shot by now

Hi AW, are you being antagonist toward me for a reason or am I reading it wrong?

[Andrew Walker]

Hi AW, are you being antagonist toward me for a reason or am I reading it wrong?

It was more a bit of light hearted banter

[4 the all in brawl]

You should You must keep yourself and more importantly others safe.

By the way. War is peace.

2 bouts of suspected myocarditis (I should have gone to hospital but I rather stubbornly rode it out at home on the worst days and nights), including ongoing chestpains, palpitations and breathlessness issues for months on end after the second one has stymied any enthusiasm I might have had for a booster. I have pretty much recovered now apart from chest pains which I still get from time to time.

Booster? One day perhaps, I think having 3 shots in a relatively short time is a tad risky, considering my reaction to the first 2 shots......

If i get the booster I will avoid the Pfizer and Moderna versions like avoiding the Plague.....

By the way War is Raw backwards......

[mightyrooster]

It was more a bit of light hearted banter

Ok phew. I just know you disagree with covid vaccination and thought you were having a dig at me in the Putin thread. So all good. And I had my first booster 4 weeks ago so I sure hope I’m not required to have another one for a long time yet.
I think PC61 was being a tad hypocritical insinuating I was ‘far gone’, when he likes to lecture other posters about sticking to the topic rather than getting personal. But anyway, I do think he just enjoys stirring the pot more than anything.

[mightyrooster]

2 bouts of suspected myocarditis (I should have gone to hospital but I rather stubbornly rode it out at home on the worst days and nights), including ongoing chestpains, palpitations and breathlessness issues for months on end after the second one has stymied any enthusiasm I might have had for a booster. I have pretty much recovered now apart from chest pains which I still get from time to time.

Booster? One day perhaps, I think having 3 shots in a relatively short time is a tad risky, considering my reaction to the first 2 shots......

If i get the booster I will avoid the Pfizer and Moderna versions like avoiding the Plague.....

By the way War is Raw backwards......

Sorry to hear that Brawl. I hope you’re feeling better now. I would definitely avoid another Pfizer or Moderna shot if I were you.

[Paddo Colt 61]

A lot of groupthink on show here all of it emotional and lacking evidence. My sole concern it to urge people to think by pointing to the lies and hypocrisy on show throughout all of this. Responding with MSM emotion (or, in the case of the Brawl Boy, Sky News hyperbole) doesn't cut it.

It was sheeple who cheered on the Great War and the Vietnam War (another American "good" invasion of another country) with, once more, the catastrophic loss of so many of their children.

[mightyrooster]

A lot of groupthink on show here all of it emotional and lacking evidence. My sole concern it to urge people to think by pointing to the lies and hypocrisy on show throughout all of this. Responding with MSM emotion (or, in the case of the Brawl Boy, Sky News hyperbole) doesn't cut it.

It was sheeple who cheered on the Great War and the Vietnam War (another American "good" invasion of another country) with, once more, the catastrophic loss of so many of their children.

I did not cheer on the American involvement in Vietnam. Apart from the fact I had only just started to speak and walk, having researched and read about the war years later I believe the US should have stayed the hell out - the same way Russia should stay the hell out of Ukraine. The whole situation in Ukraine is very complex and your insinuation that you are the only one intelligent enough to see that is quite condescending. I am aware of the history of Russia and Ukraine and we're not just talking about the Soviet Union here - we're talking about prior to the Bolshevik Revolution. I can understand Russia feels 'threatened' the same way the US felt 'threatened' in the 1960's at the time of the Vietnam War. Neither justifies an invasion under the guise of a 'military operation'. Just as the US has some support from within Vietnam, Russia has some support from within Ukraine. The key word is 'some'. There is a big difference between 'some' and 'majority'.

[Paddo Colt 61]

The US (aka NATO) should have "stayed the hell out" of the Serbia/Kosovo conflict also but in that instance it took advantage of a very week Russia in the early nineties. Kosovo was a Serbian enclave for centuries but NATO went to war with Serbia on behalf of the Kosavar community. It was an illegal war. Later Russia did exactly the same thing in the Crimea and now in Ukraine. Clearly, NATO's action is Russia's model. Look again at my post on cognitive dissonance.

I reject the charge that I "insinuate" that I am "the only one intelligent enough to see...". That's shooting the messenger MR. You appear to be pushing the "force for good but making little mistakes along the way" point of view which is delusory.

Yes, in Vietnam the US propped up a minority of largely Catholic plutocrats who had supported Japan against their own countrymen. The fact that the South collapsed within a week does not suggest majority support ditto Afghanistan but the Ukraine is 50% Russian.

[mightyrooster]

The US (aka NATO) should have "stayed the hell out" of the Serbia/Kosovo conflict also but in that instance it took advantage of a very week Russia in the early nineties. Kosovo was a Serbian enclave for centuries but NATO went to war with Serbia on behalf of the Kosavar community. It was an illegal war. Later Russia did exactly the same thing in the Crimea and now in Ukraine. Clearly, NATO's action is Russia's model. Look again at my post on cognitive dissonance.

I reject the charge that I "insinuate" that I am "the only one intelligent enough to see...". That's shooting the messenger MR. You appear to be pushing the "force for good but making little mistakes along the way" point of view which is delusory.

Yes, in Vietnam the US propped up a minority of largely Catholic plutocrats who had supported Japan against their own countrymen. The fact that the South collapsed within a week does not suggest majority support ditto Afghanistan but the Ukraine is 50% Russian.

Well..
People with differing perspectives to yours are 'sheeple'
'reason......requires a dispassionate examination of issues that is well beyond most even if they had the interest.
I am 'a long way gone'
King Salvo's comments were 'unbefitting' from someone who usually is more thoughtful

Is that not shooting the messenger or am I wrong on that too?

[ism22]

> I reject the charge that I "insinuate" that I am "the only one intelligent enough to see...". That's shooting the messenger MR. You appear to be pushing the "force for good but making little mistakes along the way" point of view which is delusory..

Dude I know you're just being the messenger in spreading Vlad's propaganda but that that doesn't suddenly make it useful/factual input.

You've come in with a clear agenda, asserting that you want the 'real story minus western propaganda'. From your question it's apparent that you believe the west (every western country) is spreading unified 'propaganda' (which we all know has a very different meaning in Russia) that obfuscates the supposed 'REAL' story. From your perspective as 'the messenger', Russia's not an aggressor. They're the victim of all this and are innocently trying to re-unite babies with their mother.

IMO it doesn't take a lot of words/analysis to reveal you intent. I dunno if you actually hold these opinions or if you're just trolling (or both) but now that Russia's invaded (and the Ukraine's defended itself) I think it's time for you to give it a rest. Thousands have died and as a retro gamer, Krikzz (who is a nerd - not a political schmuck) has posted photos of what it's like (with his baby in a cot behind him in a powerless basement) saying 'we are in hell'. If you think this sorta war is justified by some fictional tale of the mother country just wanting its babies back then you're off your head.

[A Country Member]

panem et circenses

[Paddo Colt 61]

Again -Ism I am not "spreading Vlad's propaganda" I simply cite alternative views to the ubiquitous US narrative. As I've pointed out continuously those views are the views of former Australian diplomats and academics with expertise in Eastern European affairs. Demonising sometimes leads to catastrophe and the US has been at war for most of its existence. It is not safe to uncritically fall in line with it as Malcolm Fraser pointed out, if it wasn't obvious before that.

Of course war and invasions are evil and tragic for ordinary folk but similar emotional levels seem to be absent in the West when the US are the invaders or the urgers which is usually the case. Such is the power of its all pervasive narrative. Surely I've cited sufficient evidence/precedents on this thread to, at least, provide some cause for thought. Do we learn nothing from history?

Your last sentence implies that you have read very cursorily what has been said prior. It's about security not Empire and if anyone has put Ukraine in this lamentable position, it's the US. It's soft power - music, TV, Film, Fashion and "Celebrity" beguile most of us but its elites are warmongers. How many times since Eisenhower have we been warned about the Military/Industrial complex?

[ism22]

Again -Ism I am not "spreading Vlad's propaganda" I simply cite alternative views to the ubiquitous US narrative.

As noted, I don't accept your opinion that the global, mainstream reporting of this is some sort of US conspiracy. This is the crutch on which you stand and there's nothing supporting it.

Outside the lone opinion of an expansionary dictatorship, I'm not exactly sure what your 'unbiased' sources are. You've clearly started this discussion with an agenda that assumes mainstream media's a hoax, based purely on what the Kremlin's saying.

Yes all sources of news have SOME bias (e.g. Fox will hate on lefties all the time, the Guardian will hate on the right, Epoch will be overly critical of China...etc). However, mainstream reporting isn't written by the propaganda arm of the Kremlin. The closest we have to state media is ABC/SBS/BBC/NHK...etc, which are hardly propaganda arms of their respective governments as they regularly criticise the said governments.

[mightyrooster]

ism, I think what PC is trying to say is that the 'cause' of the situation in Ukraine is a result of NATO, US led policies, strategies and interference in Ukraine which have placed Putin in a position where he feels Russia'a interests have been threatened. The Western media in it's reporting of the situation fails to mention any of this background in it's daily updates and diaries, simply letting it's citizens (ie us, the 'dumb sheeple' as PC calls us) believe Vlad just decided to invade another country for no reason whatsoever other than he's a looney who wants to claim it.

This is all well and good, only Putin is a nationalist, imperialist dictator regardless of what the US has done to antagonise him. He uses his own media to spout propoganda to his people. He poisons and imprisons those who disagree with his agenda. He has rigged Russian elections for years. And yes, the US has involved itself in other nations' business for years and years as well and our media calls it 'liberation' or 'freedom fighting' etc. This does not mean Putin should have a green light to do what he wants either.

What I don't know is whether PC is simply pointing out the media hypocrisy in it all, or he actually fully backs Putin all the way.

[Paddo Colt 61]

When I said that you were "a long way gone" MR I was referring to cognitive dissonance, it wasn't personal. Again you put my case in a nutshell but you can't let go of the Putin as demon trope and "the US has involved itself in other people's business" is certainly an understatement which further suggests a struggle with cog dis. Surely undermines, traduces, bullies, lies and "invades" other countries is the more appropriate description.

If US propaganda can do what you concede it can do, why should its demonisation of Putin be given any credibility?

Again, I am attempting to promote discussion by presenting the opinions of very credible critics who would never be given a voice on MSM but I do think that Putin has a strong case.

Surely this forum has a lot more potential than "What's your fave pop song?". Sadly many would disagree. Those "quiet Australians" are the ones that I (and many others) call "Sheeple"