Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[mightyrooster]

When I said that you were "a long way gone" MR I was referring to cognitive dissonance, it wasn't personal. Again you put my case in a nutshell but you can't let go of the Putin as demon trope and "the US has involved itself in other people's business" is certainly an understatement which further suggests a struggle with cog dis. Surely undermines, traduces, bullies, lies and "invades" other countries is the more appropriate description.

If US propaganda can do what you concede it can do, why should its demonisation of Putin be given any credibility?

Again, I am attempting to promote discussion by presenting the opinions of very credible critics who would never be given a voice on MSM but I do think that Putin has a strong case.

Surely this forum has a lot more potential than "What's your fave pop song?". Sadly many would disagree. Those "quiet Australians" are the ones that I (and many others) call "Sheeple"

Yes I have understated the US involvement in other nations. Yes the US bullies, lies and invades. Vietnam, Iraq and the so called WMD are fine examples.

No, I am not using the Putin as a demon trope. The man is a narcissist, who loves his country and thinks he's Peter the Great or the like. I've worked that out for myself based on his own words and actions. I also thinkTrump is a narcisist and George Doubya was a lying, manipulative idiot, completely out of his depth at a time when America was genuinely terrified after the appaling 9/11 attacks. Sometimes it simply comes down to that, the personality and pychological mindset of the person with the power.

Also, surely sheeple are not limited to the west. There must be a few in the Russian population who fall blindly for the Kremlin's propaganda machine? If it's possible for us to be manipulated so easily, surely it's reasonable to suggest Russians are too. We are afterall, all human.

So if Putin is only bluffing, he's going to an awful lot of trouble doing it.

Also, there is room in here for both pop culture discussion and politics. I personally am a huge music fan and see no problem at all with such threads.

[Paddo Colt 61]

There are the famous and much criticised Oliver Stone Putin interviews still on Youtube. They are much criticised in the thin skinned brain washed USA of course. Megyn Kelly from NBC (I think) also interviewed Putin in St Petersburg a while back and Putin came out of that so well that the network shortened the agreed 20 minute report to just 2 minutes, fearful that the viewing public might actually like him. Thankfully the complete one hour + interview can be found also on Youtube.

[Rooster36]

There are the famous and much criticised Oliver Stone Putin interviews still on Youtube. They are much criticised in the thin skinned brain washed USA of course. Megyn Kelly from NBC (I think) also interviewed Putin in St Petersburg a while back and Putin came out of that so well that the network shortened the agreed 20 minute report to just 2 minutes, fearful that the viewing public might actually like him. Thankfully the complete one hour + interview can be found also on Youtube.

Lol never change colt! You’re an idiot

[Jacks Fur Coat]

Incredible courage and resolve being shown by Ukraine. A lesson to other free nations when confronted by vicious cowardly bullies. Heartbreaking at the same time, they deserve better.

If you want to criticise the West its about not being strong enough in support, early enough. Too little, too late. Sanctions and uniform bans and restrictions will hurt Russia, but the weaponry and $$ being used in support should have come earlier. They pussyfooted around trusting Putin was just bluffing. He is getting very desperate, and that means more dangerous for now.

The West has to have a strong united front against tyrannical dictators like this and China. They will always exploit weakness and equivocation on the part of those they seek to dominate. I would venture to say that this wouldn't have happened on Trumps watch. Despite those that would denounce him.

[A Country Member]

It is disappointing that more wasn’t done by the west and the EU to discourage Ukraine from joining NATO. It harks back to the Cuban missile crisis and how the US reacted. Not on my doorstep. The dissolution of the Warsaw Pact 30 years ago has eroded the barrier and former members joint NATO was always going to wake the bear.

[mightyrooster]

It is disappointing that more wasn’t done by the west and the EU to discourage Ukraine from joining NATO. It harks back to the Cuban missile crisis and how the US reacted. Not on my doorstep. The dissolution of the Warsaw Pact 30 years ago has eroded the barrier and former members joint NATO was always going to wake the bear.

Yes very good points.

[Random Rooster]

They will always exploit weakness and equivocation on the part of those they seek to dominate. I would venture to say that this wouldn't have happened on Trumps watch. Despite those that would denounce him.

That's the same Trump who frequently sought to undermine NATO and even went as far as to call its members "delinquents"

The same guy who ordered the withdrawal of 12,000 American troops out of Germany because the Germans weren't "paying their way"- a lie he repeated ad-nauseum even though the amount of direct funding to NATO is based on each NATO members total domestic and foreign output claimed by residents of their country.

The same guy who told national defence advisor John Bolton " i dont give a shiit about NATO" because they were a "drain for the US"

The same guy whose former chief of staff John F. Kelly, a retired four-star Marine general, said “one of the most difficult tasks he faced with Trump was trying to stop him from pulling out of NATO.”

The same guy who looked like a introverted lap dog when facing the world media with Putin ......and when asked the question if there was interference in the 2016 election by Russia he said he couldn't see any reason why Russia "would" have been involved .... but then backtracked his statement the next day by giving the feeble excuse that he meant to say "wouldn't" instead of "would".


Whats happening in the Ukraine isnt the fault of the current or any previous presidents of the USA. Fox News is unsurprisingly blaming Biden- making a political issue of it all-further dividing America making it into a bigger shiithole than it already is.

Meanwhile in Queensland the news of how Australians are coming together to help their fellow citizen without any hesitation, just shows how lucky we are

[King Salvo]

It is disappointing that more wasn’t done by the west and the EU to discourage Ukraine from joining NATO. It harks back to the Cuban missile crisis and how the US reacted. Not on my doorstep. The dissolution of the Warsaw Pact 30 years ago has eroded the barrier and former members joint NATO was always going to wake the bear.

NATO is a smokescreen for Putin's real intention and this has been demonstrated in the Crimea and in the Donbas region of Ukraine in backing the separatists and recognising Donetsk and Luhansk as peoples republics.

Russia does not recognise Ukraine as a independent and sovereign country and never has or will as to Putin and his cronies Ukraine is part of Russia

There is no way that Russia should be allowed to get away with this invasion and imposing full sanctions/bans etc on everything that one can think off should be be implemented worldwide and kept on until the Putin Government collapses as one can be sure the general Russian population wont put up with it for very long

Khay zhyve Ukrayina i nekhay protsvitaye

[King Salvo]

What does Putin want?


He has not only demanded that Ukraine never join NATO but that the alliance turns the clock back to 1997 and reverses its eastward expansion. He has complained Russia has "nowhere further to retreat to - do they think we'll just sit idly by?".

He wants NATO to remove its forces and military infrastructure from member states that joined the alliance from 1997 and not to deploy "strike weapons near Russia's borders". That means Central Europe, Eastern Europe and the Baltics.

But this goes beyond NATO. In the words of Germany's chancellor, Russia's leader "wants to take over Europe according to his world view".

Last year, President Putin wrote a long piece describing Russians and Ukrainians as "one nation", and he has described the collapse of the Soviet Union in December 1991 as the "disintegration of historical Russia".

He has claimed modern Ukraine was entirely created by communist Russia and is now a puppet state, controlled by the West. It was his pressure on Ukraine not to sign an association treaty with the EU in 2013 that sparked the protests that ousted its pro-Kremlin president.

In President Putin's eyes, the West promised back in 1990 that NATO would expand "not an inch to the east", but did so anyway.

That was before the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, so the promise made to then Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev only referred to East Germany in the context of a reunified Germany. Mr Gorbachev said later "the topic of NATO expansion was never discussed" at the time.

Interesting that Putin wants NATO to turn the click back to 1997 - See below the countries that Joined NATO since 1997 - Virtually the countries that made up the Soviet Union all of who would love to be controlled from Moscow again with Moscow Selected Puppet"Leaders" - not




https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

[ism22]

NATO is a smokescreen for Putin's real intention and this has been demonstrated in the Crimea and in the Donbas region of Ukraine in backing the separatists and recognising Donetsk and Luhansk as peoples republics.

Bingo. I think their intention's pretty clear and it's a farce to suggest anything else. They have all the hallmarks of an expansionary dictatorship.

Yes I have understated the US involvement in other nations. Yes the US bullies, lies and invades. Vietnam, Iraq and the so called WMD are fine examples.

Since Vietnam keeps coming up, I note that (as somebody with Vietnamese family & a regular attendee at cultural events) large numbers of Vietnamese in Australia are supporters of the US' involvement. As in, just about every event begins with the raising of a South Vietnamese flag, playing of their anthem and an ode to all the allied forces that defended South Vietnam.

Not gonna try giving everybody a history lesson or whatever (FWIW I agree that much of the anti-'communist' sentiment held by trigger happy 'Murricans is dangerous / ill-informed. Also, conscription was wrong). But like... for those who lost everything thanks to Ho Chi Minh's invasion, it's a punch in the face to be told their birth city (Saigon) is now 'Ho Chi Minh City' and that the US were never welcome. The North was backed by China, Russia and North Korea, with a goal of providing them with a buffer. This worked, but it doesn't mean everybody likes it (many within Vietnam who 'support' the communists are just doing so to screw over the regime by pocketing $$$ from cushy communist party jobs... they're not all sheep who mindlessly follow the imagery of Ho Chi Minh, Lenin and Karl Marx being their saviours). Similarly, we're not all sheep. We're more outspoken though! When you live in a dictatorship you don't go out an protest... you bide your time and say everything in a very nuanced manner.

I dare say that Russia's more recent moves have sent chills down a lot of Vietnamese people's spines as they know what happened last time Russia got involved in their affairs. They're conniving bastards. To claim that the free world has somehow united together in order to cook up Russia's expansionary agenda is a farce, nestled in the fact that the current regime's dream is to reunite the Soviet Union (if not through puppet governments then through invasion).

Incredible courage and resolve being shown by Ukraine. A lesson to other free nations when confronted by vicious cowardly bullies. Heartbreaking at the same time, they deserve better.

Yes and these people are actively asking for help. Right now I think efforts should be concentrated around saving as many lives as possible. If Russia hadn't invaded then there would be no war. There's really no other angle and it isn't some sorta western propaganda... all over the internet, independent Ukranian citizens are asking for help. Literally nobody's saying 'just give up and hand everything over to Russia... we wish to reunite with our mother country'. If that was their position then they wouldn't be resisting Russia. Or, half the country would be running towards Russia (rather than Poland) for safety.

[mightyrooster]

Bingo. I think their intention's pretty clear and it's a farce to suggest anything else. They have all the hallmarks of an expansionary dictatorship.



Since Vietnam keeps coming up, I note that (as somebody with Vietnamese family & a regular attendee at cultural events) large numbers of Vietnamese in Australia are supporters of the US' involvement. As in, just about every event begins with the raising of a South Vietnamese flag, playing of their anthem and an ode to all the allied forces that defended South Vietnam.

Not gonna try giving everybody a history lesson or whatever (FWIW I agree that much of the anti-'communist' sentiment held by trigger happy 'Murricans is dangerous / ill-informed. Also, conscription was wrong). But like... for those who lost everything thanks to Ho Chi Minh's invasion, it's a punch in the face to be told their birth city (Saigon) is now 'Ho Chi Minh City' and that the US were never welcome. The North was backed by China, Russia and North Korea, with a goal of providing them with a buffer. This worked, but it doesn't mean everybody likes it (many within Vietnam who 'support' the communists are just doing so to screw over the regime by pocketing $$$ from cushy communist party jobs... they're not all sheep who mindlessly follow the imagery of Ho Chi Minh, Lenin and Karl Marx being their saviours). Similarly, we're not all sheep. We're more outspoken though! When you live in a dictatorship you don't go out an protest... you bide your time and say everything in a very nuanced manner.

I dare say that Russia's more recent moves have sent chills down a lot of Vietnamese people's spines as they know what happened last time Russia got involved in their affairs. They're conniving bastards. To claim that the free world has somehow united together in order to cook up Russia's expansionary agenda is a farce, nestled in the fact that the current regime's dream is to reunite the Soviet Union (if not through puppet governments then through invasion).



Yes and these people are actively asking for help. Right now I think efforts should be concentrated around saving as many lives as possible. If Russia hadn't invaded then there would be no war. There's really no other angle and it isn't some sorta western propaganda... all over the internet, independent Ukranian citizens are asking for help. Literally nobody's saying 'just give up and hand everything over to Russia... we wish to reunite with our mother country'. If that was their position then they wouldn't be resisting Russia. Or, half the country would be running towards Russia (rather than Poland) for safety.

I don’t think Putin wants to reunite the Soviet Union. He wants to recreate the Russian Empire as it existed before the Bolshevik Revolution. He is a nationalist imperialist. His behaviour and psychological makeup is reminiscent of the leaders who led the world into the last two world wars. He is very dangerous and wants to be the next Russian Tsar! Everything he has said suggests this has been his desire for a very long time.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Done a bit of crash researn King - all of it in the wrong places? We can read most of that half truth in out unreliable MSM.

1990 was a time of negotiation with the west. Gorby wouldn't have made his final call and then protested _"Oh by the way, yez wouldn't be moving NATO East would you? Ridiculous!

The dismantling of the Soviet Union and especially the re Unification of Germany was a momentous diplomatic concession for Russia. Just 30 years previously Germany had all but destroyed the joint and left 30 million dead (some say up to 50 million). Preventing a repeat of that was Russias post war priority - what Churchill dubbed the "Iron Curtain" (that's Churchill, the aristocrat - he who opposed the dismantling of Empire, Were those Empire countries denied "freedom"? No talk of "Iron Curtain" there). For Russia, a reunited Germany was an existential threat. Countries like Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia- Bulgaria had joined Germany in the catastrophic invasion. Right wing elements that were suppressed post war came, predictably, back to life.

NATO, its aggressive anti communist role now redundant in 1971 looked for new threats in the east were there were none but set about dismantling the last Communist standing - Serbia. Previously a mate of the US because of its independence in the Stalin years, it was now dispensable and NATO invaded to protect an Albanian minority which had become a majority in parts of Kosovo. Sound familiar? Has Russia not done similarly? Get real King, re read my post on Cognitive Dissonance.

Ism. Some in Vietnam South might have lost everything but the North lost millions against a technically superior invader. It was a racist war in which your heroes were on the side of the invader. Their leaders and, of course, their unfortunate sheeple had also sided with the Colonial French (under whom thy prospered (well some of them) and later with the Japanese invaders. They were on the wrong side of history Ism. Spare us the tears.

Jaxie - still no idea, not worth a response. Sky has repeated that stuff so often that you know it by heart.

[ism22]

Done a bit of crash researn King - all of it in the wrong places?

I thought his opinions showed decent insight and the materials were of decent quality.

TBH all you're doing is bikeshedding. I'd elaborate further, but I'm growing too tired to respond. Suffice to say, I think you're largely on your own with your opinions and nobody's gonna convince you that you're the sheep in all this. Oh well.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Done a bit of crash researn King - all of it in the wrong places? We can read most of that half truth in out unreliable MSM.

1990 was a time of negotiation with the west. Gorby wouldn't have made his final call and then protested _"Oh by the way, yez wouldn't be moving NATO East would you? Ridiculous!

The dismantling of the Soviet Union and especially the re Unification of Germany was a momentous diplomatic concession for Russia. Just 30 years previously Germany had all but destroyed the joint and left 30 million dead (some say up to 50 million). Preventing a repeat of that was Russias post war priority - what Churchill dubbed the "Iron Curtain" (that's Churchill, the aristocrat - he who opposed the dismantling of Empire, Were those Empire countries denied "freedom"? No talk of "Iron Curtain" there). For Russia, a reunited Germany was an existential threat. Countries like Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia- Bulgaria had joined Germany in the catastrophic invasion. Right wing elements that were suppressed post war came, predictably, back to life.

NATO, its aggressive anti communist role now redundant in 1971 looked for new threats in the east were there were none but set about dismantling the last Communist standing - Serbia. Previously a mate of the US because of its independence in the Stalin years, it was now dispensable and NATO invaded to protect an Albanian minority which had become a majority in parts of Kosovo. Sound familiar? Has Russia not done similarly? Get real King, re read my post on Cognitive Dissonance.

Ism. Some in Vietnam South might have lost everything but the North lost millions against a technically superior invader. It was a racist war in which your heroes were on the side of the invader. Their leaders and, of course, their unfortunate sheeple had also sided with the Colonial French (under whom thy prospered (well some of them) and later with the Japanese invaders. They were on the wrong side of history Ism. Spare us the tears.

Jaxie - still no idea, not worth a response. Sky has repeated that stuff so often that you know it by heart.

[ism22]

Blah blah blah blah blah [exact copy of previous post just to flood the chat.

In the famous word of a former Easts captain... you're off your head!