Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[mightyrooster]

At the end of the day Ukraine has the right to join Nato if they are welcomed and no country be it USA or Russia , China or anyone else has the right to take the freedom from anyone else. What happened 100 , 75 or 25 years ago should not come into it . The fact that we stand by and watch what is happening is a disgrace.

I agree but the problem is if any NATO nation becomes involved the situation will intensify. Putin has already threatened that they will see consequences the like of which no country has seen in their history.

[Random Rooster]

At the end of the day Ukraine has the right to join Nato if they are welcomed and no country be it USA or Russia , China or anyone else has the right to take the freedom from anyone else. What happened 100 , 75 or 25 years ago should not come into it . The fact that we stand by and watch what is happening is a disgrace.

What more can be done? The scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific but if NATO sends in troops there's a real possibility- actually a probability- of it becoming WW3 and the loss of lives will be tenfold.

If Putin decides to ignore the warnings not to make a move into neighbouring NATO countries then that's a different matter.

I got no idea how this is going to end.

[Rooster1908]

What more can be done? The scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific but if NATO sends in troops there's a real possibility- actually a probability- of it becoming WW3 and the loss of lives will be tenfold.

If Putin decides to ignore the warnings not to make a move into neighbouring NATO countries then that's a different matter.

I got no idea how this is going to end.

!00% agree but the reality for me is if a neighbors house is burning im not going to stand and watch because i may get burnt. This wont be were Putin stops . .Simply saying that things may get worse surely cant mean we sacrifice the innocent in Ukraine . Surely the world needs to be better than that.

[ism22]

What more can be done? The scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific but if NATO sends in troops there's a real possibility- actually a probability- of it becoming WW3 and the loss of lives will be tenfold.

If Putin decides to ignore the warnings not to make a move into neighbouring NATO countries then that's a different matter.

I got no idea how this is going to end.

I believe the international criminal court's looking into Putin right now. He and all his billionaire cronies aren't gonna get away with this IMO. Having spent years travelling the world freely in $$$ boats and studf (and owning clubs like Chelsea...etc as status symbols... yeah I know that guy says the money would go to the Ukraine but I suggest he's now broke) they're now gonna be isolated from the world.

These sanctions won't end and Vlad now runs the risk of criminal sanctions.

WWIII? IMO Russia's too isolated. The only toxic dynamic is that China isn't gonna slap sanctions on Vlad and tell him to stop. Who else? Literally nobody supports Russia in this. My suspicion is that push come to shove, Russia's gonna p!ss off China and end up in deep shyte.

[mightyrooster]

!00% agree but the reality for me is if a neighbors house is burning im not going to stand and watch because i may get burnt. This wont be were Putin stops . .Simply saying that things may get worse surely cant mean we sacrifice the innocent in Ukraine . Surely the world needs to be better than that.

Again I agree but he’s insinuating nuclear weapons. That’s horrendous and our worst nightmare. We spent the entire Cold War worrying about that.

[Paddo Colt 61]

A concern is that the universal hysteria being whipped up could, I say could, generate a pretext for NATO (a war mongering entity) to up the ante. WMDs could be that pretext after the nuclear Power Station incident but with Vietnam it was the lie (documented) that a US warship had been attacked by North Vietnam in the Gulf of Tonkin. More realistically, given the stakes, the US/NATO will stay out of it providing whatever "assistance" is necessary to prolong the agony in Ukraine. Whatever, Russia is being very clear and forceful - "We're over the chess game, we weren't taken seriously and now we're doing something about it, your move!"

That's less that ideal of course in fact it is pretty much critical that no escalation takes place. Gen Curtis May, an America cold warrior, advised nuking Vietnam and as we've seen the calibre of nutters who have influence in the US in recent times.

'08 - you propose that the West steps it up then? Like all of us you're an ordinary person. Where's the benefit is there to you or to the rest of us Sheeple ?
"What happened [in the past] should not come into it" - are you seriously putting that? What, no lessons from History?

Ism: Is that the same ICC that the US refuses to ratify like it refuses to ratify all sorts of UN treaties? The fact is that it long ago rejected the UN umpire preferring to maintain a free hand as world hegemon. Other nations can be arraigned for war crime but not the US military. It's an American "Rules based" order -ism remember that and be able to repeat it without a hint of embarrassment since you seem to accept US exceptionalism.

"Literally nobody supports Russia in this" is untrue - India and China both stopped short of condemnation at the UN - India! The great hope of Capitalism going forward. Abstention is the sober option in the face of the West's obvious intransigence re Russia' concern for its security. The truth is that we don't know the attitudes of nations outside of the higher UN councils, we only really have the attitude of the Anglo sphere.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

What more can be done? The scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific but if NATO sends in troops there's a real possibility- actually a probability- of it becoming WW3 and the loss of lives will be tenfold.

If Putin decides to ignore the warnings not to make a move into neighbouring NATO countries then that's a different matter.

I got no idea how this is going to end.

Sadly the most 'peaceful ' solution will be for Putin to be overthrown by his own, or skilfully 'taken out'. Far from all his countrymen are behind him, despite his propaganda machine. If he does remain in power, and pursue his plans he will be done for war crimes and never see freedom again, even if he does survive. He can't 'win' now.

Let's hope.

[mightyrooster]

A concern is that the universal hysteria being whipped up could, I say could, generate a pretext for NATO (a war mongering entity) to up the ante. WMDs could be that pretext after the nuclear Power Station incident but with Vietnam it was the lie (documented) that a US warship had been attacked by North Vietnam in the Gulf of Tonkin. More realistically, given the stakes, the US/NATO will stay out of it providing whatever "assistance" is necessary to prolong the agony in Ukraine. Whatever, Russia is being very clear and forceful - "We're over the chess game, we weren't taken seriously and now we're doing something about it, your move!"

That's less that ideal of course in fact it is pretty much critical that no escalation takes place. Gen Curtis May, an America cold warrior, advised nuking Vietnam and as we've seen the calibre of nutters who have influence in the US in recent times.

'08 - you propose that the West steps it up then? Like all of us you're an ordinary person. Where's the benefit is there to you or to the rest of us Sheeple ?
"What happened [in the past] should not come into it" - are you seriously putting that? What, no lessons from History?

Ism: Is that the same ICC that the US refuses to ratify like it refuses to ratify all sorts of UN treaties? The fact is that it long ago rejected the UN umpire preferring to maintain a free hand as world hegemon. Other nations can be arraigned for war crime but not the US military. It's an American "Rules based" order -ism remember that and be able to repeat it without a hint of embarrassment since you seem to accept US exceptionalism.

"Literally nobody supports Russia in this" is untrue - India and China both stopped short of condemnation at the UN - India! The great hope of Capitalism going forward. Abstention is the sober option in the face of the West's obvious intransigence re Russia' concern for its security. The truth is that we don't know the attitudes of nations outside of the higher UN councils, we only really have the attitude of the Anglo sphere.

Yes China’s lack of condemnation is a concern. However, Switzerland has broken its usual 200 years of neutrality to support Ukraine.

[Random Rooster]

Sadly the most 'peaceful ' solution will be for Putin to be overthrown by his own, or skilfully 'taken out'. Far from all his countrymen are behind him, despite his propaganda machine. If he does remain in power, and pursue his plans he will be done for war crimes and never see freedom again, even if he does survive. He can't 'win' now.

Let's hope.

I think this is very close to the mark. Yes, lets hope

[mightyrooster]

Sadly the most 'peaceful ' solution will be for Putin to be overthrown by his own, or skilfully 'taken out'. Far from all his countrymen are behind him, despite his propaganda machine. If he does remain in power, and pursue his plans he will be done for war crimes and never see freedom again, even if he does survive. He can't 'win' now.

Let's hope.

That or he dies suddenly of a massive stroke or heart attack!

[Random Rooster]

A concern is that the universal hysteria being whipped up could, I say could, generate a pretext for NATO (a war mongering entity) to up the ante.

Please when you start off with a ludicrous statement it weakens anything else you got to say

"What happened [in the past] should not come into it" - are you seriously putting that? What, no lessons from History?

Yes- Korea, Vietnam, Iraq. Afghanistan for both Russia and the USA- lessons were military action against a country that is no direct threat to yours doesn't work and you will ultimately lose. Every country has the right to defend itself but not invade another on speculation

Other nations can be arraigned for war crime but not the US military.

True

The truth is that we don't know the attitudes of nations outside of the higher UN councils, we only really have the attitude of the Anglo sphere.

Well if they choose to abstain from voting then their attitudes outside of the UN is irrelevant on the world stage. They can enjoy talking about their beliefs amongst themselves

At least Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea and Syria spoke up.....as did the 144 member states voted for the resolution

[Jacks Fur Coat]

That or he dies suddenly of a massive stroke or heart attack!

Or maybe, just maybe, he might piss off the wrong Bear this time..

[Paddo Colt 61]

Putin has two thirds majority support in Russia. Support being especially strong among older demographics. His weakest support is the younger cohort but since when have they been right about much? It's the demographic that the West plays to - hormones on the move big time, naive, shopping top priority, beauty, celebrity, social media and not a lot between the ears in most cases.

People, please abandon the idea that Putin is a crazed misfit and that his own people might eradicate him. He is an elected leader who is seen, widely in Russia, as something of a saviour. At what point, if ever, do you concede that the other side might be hypocritical and disingenuous. The ideal of the US might be an homogenous corporate world in which there is no challenge to US ideological hegemony. It certainly looks like that .

Please MR, China is in the same boat as Russia. Why is China a worry? What, they're going to do the bidding of their antagonist? India is the West's big worry - included in the revised anti Chinese QUAD group headed up by the US of course, the Indian nation is often seen to be the great counterweight to China. Those who seek to diminish the CCP's astonishing achievements often suggest that India will soon overtake China economically and Capitalism will emerge, once again, unchallenged. No sign of that yet - an ideological pipe dream.

Random. A "ludicrous statement"? NATO (the US) invaded Serbia less than 20 years ago without UN agreement. When the Soviet Union was broken up, NATO's raison d'etre went with it. Remarkable that people are blind to what has happened over the last two decades and can still get into a pro western lather whenever called on to do so by government and media. Why is there no frothing over Israel's annexation of Gaza? No frothing over British protection of Northern Ireland, no frothing over Iraq?

[Random Rooster]

Putin has two thirds majority support in Russia. Support being especially strong among older demographics. His weakest support is the younger cohort but since when have they been right about much? It's the demographic that the West plays to - hormones on the move big time, naive, shopping top priority, beauty, celebrity, social media and not a lot between the ears in most cases.

You mean the educated ones who don't rely on Russian state media for all their news?

People, please abandon the idea that Putin is a crazed misfit and that his own people might eradicate him. He is an elected leader who is seen, widely in Russia, as something of a saviour

It's easy to be elected when you kill anyone that opposes you. Hitler worked that one out!

A saviour from what?? I hope they remember all these nice things about him because they got some hard hard times headed their way. Ill have a guess nd say if they dont remember all his "magnificent" qualities he will quickly "remind" them

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/l...16-3?r=US&IR=T

[Paddo Colt 61]

No, I mean the young and impressionable. Are you seriously suggesting that truth can be found in Business Insider?

In the early days of the cold war (early 50s), the US flooded East Germany with propaganda images of US modernity - modern kitchens and the like. The message being that life was so much better in the West. Of course that was a lie as far as the great majority of people in the US were concerned - those who would, today, earn the $7 minimum wage and even those well above.
Consumer goods galore - the enticement of American soft power - more than any other, the youth demographic is and always has been in thrall to it.

In California some years ago I remarked that I had, to a degree, vicariously grown up in the US and that shows like Leave it to Beaver had presented an image of boundless middle class comfort for all and I was both fascinated and envious given the 3 rooms in which my family lived. My host, referring to the Watts riots then in progress, suggested that a lot of Americans had also believed what they saw in those apple pie shows, wanted part of the fantasy and were taking matters into their own hands.