Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[King Salvo]

Not sure about the relevance of all that and you repeat yourself which is annoying but most of it is twaddle anyway. No country was prepared for the new Blitzkrieg. Ironically it was first theorised by an Englishman, Liddell-Hart and ignored by those in command who were also cursed with WW1 mindsets but also concerned for their own future relevance in any shake out. Germany however had its army radically curtailed by the Versailles Treaty so sweeping change was relatively easy and Guderian made the theory his own. As I say no country saw it coming and all of them maintained WW1 tactics not just Russia. France, with British support, fell in weeks and its army was taken into captivity for the duration apart from those who opted to serve with the SS but we hear only about Russian failures and the early ones were catastrophic but whether the Purges were to blame is moot.

The Red Army could not have been too bad anyway. Zhukov's army defeated the Japanese in the mid 30s in Manchuria something that no other military had been able to do up to 1945. Later it was Zhukov who was in charge of the slow bloody roll back to Berlin. I don't buy the Purge story. It's a Western attempt to devalue the Russian war winning effort while the other "allies" prevaricated for 4 long years angling, it is clear, for the end of Bolshevism. Historians put things into perspective calling it a Russo-German war.

Marshal's Konstantin Rokossovskiĭ , Ivan Konev and Vasily Chuikov are often overlooked with all kudos going to Marshal Georgy Zhukov.

Best to keep their heads down I suppose as Stalin was so infuriated that Zhukov was getting all the Hurrah's and credit as the Savoir of the Soviet Union at the Victory Parade (June 24 1945) that he banished Zhukov to far east Russia as he couldn't get rid of him like he did countless others with Zhukov being 4 times hero of the Soviet Union

After Stalin's Death and during Khrushchev's De-Stalinisation Zhukov sharply criticised Stalin's war leadership and blamed him for the annihilation of millions of Soviet citizens. Zhukov until his death in 1974 would keep a packed suitcase near the front door of his premises fully expecting to be arrested.

Khrushchev in 1957 had Zhukov expelled from the Central Committee of the CPSU and in 1958 removed Zhukov from all posts in the army.

Well as per below it shows the USA has no animosity towards the Soviet Union

USA: Marshal Georgy Zhukov is Honoured - Arlington Cemetery, Virginia (just outside of Washington DC), 24 November 1996 - 2 of Zhukov's Daughter's in attendance

http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/yo...0a817c7fbdd20f

Right - mmm I wonder what Stalin is thinking as none too happy

[King Salvo]

Fast forward to 2022... Russia attacked Ukraine. It's still bombing the shyte outta it and has this weird argument that 'this is their fault because they won't negotiate giving up sovereignty of their land to us + installing a Russian puppet government. Instead Europe, the US and other allies are giving it weapons to defend itself. As such it's also their fault for helping it defend itself instead of encouraging it to cede sovereignty so that the war can 'end'.

I'm gonna give you a free goal here and criticise Australia. We stole the land from indigenous Australians. Did that end the conflict or did it lead to endless years of discrimination, disadvantage and dissatisfaction? Zzzzz...

Even if your solution was on the table (which it never should be as only one country has sovereignty over Ukraine and it's not the USSR as it disbanded many years ago), it wouldn't end any fighting.

The ultimate solution to this is that Russia goes broke, people call for Vlad's head and Russia's forced to install a more progressive government in place of Vlad'd regime (which is invalid anyway as he used authoritarianism to amend their constitution in order to enable himself to be in power for longer).

Russia lives too much in the past and like the Soviet Union Times everything is controlled from Moscow including the money by basically one person - In the major Cities such as Moscow and St Petersburg the average monthly income is between 50 to 100% higher than the national average monthly income.

Stalinist Little Legs Putin's creeping rehabilitation of Stalin and his comments that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest disaster in history shows where their heads are at.

All a ruse to provoke some sort of sentimental/rose coloured glasses view of the past to distract Russian Citizens from the real problems facing Russia Today - the declining economy, declining living standards outside of the 2 major cities , A dysfunctional political system and of course the War in Ukraine

It's strange times in Russia as along with the creeping rehabilitation of Stalin mentioned above the Gulag Archipelago is now seen as justified and required.

The closing of the Memorial group for instance as they don't want the very dark past brought up - it's not in Stalinist Little Legs Putin's script for the so called "New Russia"

In December 2021, the closure of Memorial, one of the oldest civil rights groups in Russia, caused an outcry in the country and around the world. It had been prominent in uncovering the crimes of the Stalinist regime and remembering the victims of the Gulags. But the Russian authorities accused the organisation of trying to undermine the state order and being a foreign agent - organisations and individuals the government claims receive funding from abroad and are thus closed down and or banned.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo;
(i) All a ruse to .......distract Russian Citizens from the real problems facing Russia Today - the declining economy, declining living standards outside of the 2 major cities .....
(ii) In December 2021, the closure of Memorial, one of the oldest civil rights groups in Russia.........the Russian authorities accused the organisation of trying to undermine the state order and being a foreign agent - organisations and individuals the government claims receive [B]funding from abroad and are thus closed down and or banned. [/B]


(i) Yeah, the same problem the US proletariat is facing with their $7 an hour and bib'n'bub government system. Capitalism is rapacious, only the Chinese have got things right - Capitalism without Corporations running the show. The attempt of the West to worsen things through sanctions hasn't worked, in fact it has boomeranged spectacularly so far. Last week OPEC teamed with Russia to reduce oil supply volume thus increasing the price world wide. Good to see people putting their money where their mouths are.

(ii) And they'd be right in thinking exactly that. The US never saw a State that it wouldn't interfere with given half a chance and its MO hasn't changed since 1917.

[King Salvo]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n973143]

funding from abroad and are thus closed down and or banned. [/B]


(i) Yeah, the same problem the US proletariat is facing with their $7 an hour and bib'n'bub government system. Capitalism is rapacious, only the Chinese have got things right - Capitalism without Corporations running the show. The attempt of the West to worsen things through sanctions hasn't worked, in fact it has boomeranged spectacularly so far. Last week OPEC teamed with Russia to reduce oil supply volume thus increasing the price world wide. Good to see people putting their money where their mouths are.

(ii) And they'd be right in thinking exactly that. The US never saw a State that it wouldn't interfere with given half a chance and its MO hasn't changed since 1917.

So what was the Soviet Union MO up to 1991 and what is the Russian Federations MO post 1991

• Why did the Soviet Union annex 1/2 of Poland and why did they as part of the German-Soviet Union Non-Aggression pact agree to split up Eastern Europe - 1/3 German and 2/3 Soviet Union
• Why did the Soviet Union attempt to Blockade Berlin and then Build the Berlin Wall
• Why did the Soviet Union Invade Hungary , Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan
• Why did the Soviet Union supply missiles to Cuba
• Why did the Sino-Soviet split almost result in a full scale war in 1969 between China and the Soviet Union
• Why did Russia Invade Chechnya , Georgia and now Ukraine

Not Withstanding the Soviet Unions Involvement in the China Civil War , Korea , Vietnam and Russia's in Syria for an example

[ism22]

Can we go back to the basics? 'The west' is not a single entity and it does NOT spread propaganda!!!

Thank you. 'Russia's warped propaganda about it's illegal invasion of Ukraine'.

[Paddo Colt 61]

KIng. The past is never as simple as propaganda paints it especially when there are conflicted ideologies. There is, of course, another side to all the matters you raise but most of the events happened over 30 years ago and so I fail to see any relevance to today unless your point is that Russia is intrinsically evil. Most of the audience here has uncritically accepted the US line on just about everything despite the undeniable evidence of its mendacity worldwide. The irony is that the same readers (Hello MR and Voods) will say that they are anti US or, at least wary of its motives and yet they still accept its propaganda as truth. That's understandable as we have all been corralled in an ubiquitous American world view since birth and most people lack confidence, contrary information and, fatally, interest. Moreover the MSM is the only source of info for the great majority. We're like the throng lining up at Moscow Macca's in those propaganda pics that you posted. We throng simply because of advertising not out of any deeper sense - forget ideology.

So it is with the poor Ukrainian sheeple. Uninterested in the turn of events in 2014, they now bewilderedly face the storm, pawns in an egregious long term power play by the US/NATO with same US knocking back any Russian peace initiative.

And Izzy - "The West does not spread propaganda"? Say what? Best you stick to reporting from places where right wing coups against democratically elected government are commonplace. No boycott or consternation from you on that score. It's an "ally" of the US after all and just another place where you can consume the product of sweatshops so to Hell with principle. See? Your interest in this thread is only to the extent that alternative views cause you cognitive dissonance so you lash out with emotional nonsense. Additionally, a lot of it is all about you. You are an unabashed, unapologetic attention seeker. As an educator I saw plenty of your ilk over the years.

[ism22]

And Izzy - "The West does not spread propaganda"? Say what? Best you stick to reporting from places where right wing coups against democratically elected government are commonplace. No boycott or consternation from you on that score. It's an "ally" of the US after all and just another place where you can consume the product of sweatshops so to Hell with principle. See? Your interest in this thread is only to the extent that alternative views cause you cognitive dissonance so you lash out with emotional nonsense. Additionally, a lot of it is all about you. You are an unabashed, unapologetic attention seeker. As an educator I saw plenty of your ilk over the years.

1. Again, 'the West' is not a single entity.

2. The free press is not propaganda.

3. You're the attention seeker making weighted titles that suggest Russia/China are honest, gentle, highly developed entities and all mainstream analysis is a malicious fabrication. This is just blatantly inaccurate.

4. I have done fine in life (both academically and in terms of career progression) without your 'education'. Doubt I woulda done better if I'd listened to some nutter talking complete smack at me while high on bongs...

[King Salvo]

KIng. The past is never as simple as propaganda paints it especially when there are conflicted ideologies. There is, of course, another side to all the matters you raise but most of the events happened over 30 years ago and so I fail to see any relevance to today unless your point is that Russia is intrinsically evil. Most of the audience here has uncritically accepted the US line on just about everything despite the undeniable evidence of its mendacity worldwide. The irony is that the same readers (Hello MR and Voods) will say that they are anti US or, at least wary of its motives and yet they still accept its propaganda as truth. That's understandable as we have all been corralled in an ubiquitous American world view since birth and most people lack confidence, contrary information and, fatally, interest. Moreover the MSM is the only source of info for the great majority. We're like the throng lining up at Moscow Macca's in those propaganda pics that you posted. We throng simply because of advertising not out of any deeper sense - forget ideology.

So it is with the poor Ukrainian sheeple. Uninterested in the turn of events in 2014, they now bewilderedly face the storm, pawns in an egregious long term power play by the US/NATO with same US knocking back any Russian peace initiative.

And Izzy - "The West does not spread propaganda"? Say what? Best you stick to reporting from places where right wing coups against democratically elected government are commonplace. No boycott or consternation from you on that score. It's an "ally" of the US after all and just another place where you can consume the product of sweatshops so to Hell with principle. See? Your interest in this thread is only to the extent that alternative views cause you cognitive dissonance so you lash out with emotional nonsense. Additionally, a lot of it is all about you. You are an unabashed, unapologetic attention seeker. As an educator I saw plenty of your ilk over the years.

The past does have a bearing on the current and the future

Can you advise what the Russian peace initiative was that was "rejected" .

Another question - what if certain areas of Russia wanted to be independent republics - what would the Russian Government say or do ?

[Jacks Fur Coat]

1. Again, 'the West' is not a single entity.

2. The free press is not propaganda.

3. You're the attention seeker making weighted titles that suggest Russia/China are honest, gentle, highly developed entities and all mainstream analysis is a malicious fabrication. This is just blatantly inaccurate.

4. I have done fine in life (both academically and in terms of career progression) without your 'education'. Doubt I woulda done better if I'd listened to some nutter talking complete smack at me while high on bongs...

Yeah...and the dikwit keeps telling all and sundry "as an educator"...well Pops, you aint an educator no more, so transition peacefully to the nursing home of your choice, provided by the horrid West that feeds ya.

I loved the way Viz magazine parodied idiots like this. Former teachers etc. who still thought they were doing their former jobs. Very funny of course.

A sad man, now telling his story to a single figure crowd on a footy forum. Figures I guess.

Keep smacking him in the mouth though Ism, it looks an unfair fight but hey, he deserves it.

[ism22]

Yeah...and the dikwit keeps telling all and sundry "as an educator"...well Pops, you aint an educator no more, so transition peacefully to the nursing home of your choice, provided by the horrid West that feeds ya.

I loved the way Viz magazine parodied idiots like this. Former teachers etc. who still thought they were doing their former jobs. Very funny of course.

A sad man, now telling his story to a single figure crowd on a footy forum. Figures I guess.

Keep smacking him in the mouth though Ism, it looks an unfair fight but hey, he deserves it.

Yeah I don't get his smartest man in the room bollocks. Clearly not a fan of constructivist pedagogy.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Ah...ol' Jaxie slippin' in from the right wing to nobble the playmaker. What you fail to see lad is that old educators never die, we are ceaselessly on the lookout for opportunities to push the boundaries of knowledge ever further bringing light where there was darkness, hope to the hopeless and brains to the brainless. You fall into the last category of course but it's great to see you drawn to the thread - there's a kind of humility to it that is encouraging if not endearing. Anyway, last time I looked visitors to the thread numbered in the thousands and that is the point, we need to think globally but act locally.

Izzie "smackin' me in the mouth? Fair suck of the saveloy laddie.
And "the free press is not propaganda"? There's a piece "Western Journalists are cowardly, approval-seeking losers" on johnmenadue.com today which provides links to every point made. It is an illuminating read. As I've said many times, Menadue was head of PM& Cabinet under Whitlam and Fraser, CEO of Qantas and an Australian Ambassador. The site is eminently credible only a fool would diss it (and one here does).

Salvo, as King of the Kingdom Google you might save me the trouble by researching "Russian peace proposals Ukraine" or, better still, visit johnmenadue.com

The Soviet already granted independence to former members of the Union, usually on the understanding that they would maintain friendship with Moscow (or else). Of course the risk of US meddling was always there - the encouragement of demagogues with bullshit religious or other nefarious agendas (Chechnya and Georgia). Russian reaction is no different to the US' handling of dissent/challenges in the Empire. Surely you don't think that sheeple shrugged off their customary inertia to take a break from shopping or TV and rise up spontaneously on matters of principle? Maybe you do? Perhaps your wife is the better person to talk to about such things? My God I feel for that poor woman.

[ism22]

1. You teached me nothing and calling yourself an 'educator' does not make you some decorated Harvard professor in Asian geopolitics.

2. The west is not a united unit. Propaganda is spread by governments (usually dictatorships like the CCP and the Kremlin), not the free media. The free media says a LOT of different stuff and does not have a united political stance on anything. You simply reject any negative reporting of the CCP / Kremlin because you're bias as fark (in search of creating disputes and trying to be relevant by taking an obtuse, contrary stance on such things).

3. The fact you believe the bollocks that gets posted on a ridiculous blog doesn't mean it isn't all lies.

[Dr. Voodoo Man]

1. You teached me nothing and calling yourself an 'educator' does not make you some decorated Harvard professor in Asian geopolitics.

2. The west is not a united unit. Propaganda is spread by governments (usually dictatorships like the CCP and the Kremlin), not the free media. The free media says a LOT of different stuff and does not have a united political stance on anything. You simply reject any negative reporting of the CCP / Kremlin because you're bias as fark (in search of creating disputes and trying to be relevant by taking an obtuse, contrary stance on such things).

3. The fact you believe the bollocks that gets posted on a ridiculous blog doesn't mean it isn't all lies.

Dude your hatred of cannabis and the way you frame it is like your from the 1930's. Did you watch Reefer Madness and think it was real?

[Dr. Voodoo Man]

Yeah...and the dikwit keeps telling all and sundry "as an educator"...well Pops, you aint an educator no more, so transition peacefully to the nursing home of your choice, provided by the horrid West that feeds ya.

I loved the way Viz magazine parodied idiots like this. Former teachers etc. who still thought they were doing their former jobs. Very funny of course.

A sad man, now telling his story to a single figure crowd on a footy forum. Figures I guess.

Keep smacking him in the mouth though Ism, it looks an unfair fight but hey, he deserves it.

Vicious!!

[King Salvo]

Ah...ol' Jaxie slippin' in from the right wing to nobble the playmaker. What you fail to see lad is that old educators never die, we are ceaselessly on the lookout for opportunities to push the boundaries of knowledge ever further bringing light where there was darkness, hope to the hopeless and brains to the brainless. You fall into the last category of course but it's great to see you drawn to the thread - there's a kind of humility to it that is encouraging if not endearing. Anyway, last time I looked visitors to the thread numbered in the thousands and that is the point, we need to think globally but act locally.

Izzie "smackin' me in the mouth? Fair suck of the saveloy laddie.
And "the free press is not propaganda"? There's a piece "Western Journalists are cowardly, approval-seeking losers" on johnmenadue.com today which provides links to every point made. It is an illuminating read. As I've said many times, Menadue was head of PM& Cabinet under Whitlam and Fraser, CEO of Qantas and an Australian Ambassador. The site is eminently credible only a fool would diss it (and one here does).

Salvo, as King of the Kingdom Google you might save me the trouble by researching "Russian peace proposals Ukraine" or, better still, visit johnmenadue.com

The Soviet already granted independence to former members of the Union, usually on the understanding that they would maintain friendship with Moscow (or else). Of course the risk of US meddling was always there - the encouragement of demagogues with bullshit religious or other nefarious agendas (Chechnya and Georgia). Russian reaction is no different to the US' handling of dissent/challenges in the Empire. Surely you don't think that sheeple shrugged off their customary inertia to take a break from shopping or TV and rise up spontaneously on matters of principle? Maybe you do? Perhaps your wife is the better person to talk to about such things? My God I feel for that poor woman.

The Soviet Union Granted Independence !!!! - They all voted on mass to leave it and that should have been it and game over - But oh no Russia has the view that independence means that they are still controlled by Russia and that these countries are still Russian Republics.

How about this peace deal for starters

Russia withdraws their military and militias from all of Ukraine
Russia ceases backing and arming pro Russian militias in the Donbas and Crimea
UN peace keeping operations in the Donbas and Crimea

The Menandue site is only deemed credible for those like you that share the same views which the majority do not