Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[King Salvo]

The Soviet Union were very active in Central and South America , Middle East and Africa to significantly expand their diplomatic, political, and military presence. Most countries turned them down and looked West instead

Yugoslavia was also communist from 1919 to 1990 although after the Tito-Stalin split the Soviet Union aid and support dried up and fearing a Soviet Invasion they turned to the Unites States for Economic and Military assistance showing again that the US/West can work with Communist Regimes.


The Decline of Communism/Socialism from it's "high point" in 1978 prior to the 1979 Soviet Union Invasion of Afghanistan to now is remarkable one has to say as the soon as the Soviet Union dissolved all the funding to prop up Soviet Union Puppet Regimes around the world Dried up.

Warsaw Pact countries left and could not wait to be independent and away from the ever present control and meddling by Moscow in their everyday lives.

China/North Korea/Cuba/Vietnam/Laos basically the only one's left - I predict Cuba and Laos will be bitten by the Capitalist Bug next and will look west making it 3.


vs

[King Salvo]

So what's your answer to the problem then Paddo? Negotiate with Putin and give him Ukraine in return who assurances he doesn't invade another country? Didn't we go down that alley with Hitler....and not long after he invaded Poland?

Comrade Paddo's solution is Menadue

[King Salvo]

Quite easy to blame the US but unless people were living under a rock the Soviet Union were in every continent themselves attempting to spread communism to the masses around the world via change of Governments which had to be countered the same as extremist Jihadists has to be by the West.

Putin is someone that swore an oath to the Soviet Union and seen it's influence taken away and like others in his inner circle and hangers on has never got over this still - 31 years later.

Gorbachev is now deemed Russian Public enemy number 1 as to Putin Gorbachev was more to blame than anyone else for the dissolution of the Soviet empire. Although Yelstin was the one who signed The Belovezha Accords paving the way for the ultimate dissolution of the Soviet Union

Putin says it all the time that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century is the demise of the Soviet Union and Russian TV panel shows and media of all description is full of this rhetoric with a endless supply of "guests" reliving the Soviet Union times through rose coloured glasses plus the tirade of anti-west propaganda .

The Germany Chancellor is the 2nd Fuhrer and the German Foreign Ministers is the 2nd Ribbentrop which is interesting as who signed a Non Aggression Pact with Nazi Germany which involved the partitioning of Poland and the agreement to carve up Eastern Europe - 1/3 Germany and 2/3 Soviet Union -mmm The Soviet Union as well as them Invading Finland.

If People would rather live under Communism/Socialism, Islamic or Authoritarian and Totalitarian Regimes than in the "Evil" West then please pick one but a bit of a heads up though you wouldn't last

[King Salvo]

Of course the Anti West and lovers of Communism/Socialism on here as there a few would have loved to see the following if there was a war at time between the West and the Soviet Union as old Nasty USA would be beaten.

Thankfully the West prevailed one has to day

[ism22]

1. Menadue is local, centre left and the contributors are and reliable and in some cases well known to readers. It is a site that, pretty much, negates looney left or right accusations.

2. That's the last time Izzy, I'm not going to repeat it.

3.Phew...how did you ever negotiate Law (if indeed you did)?

4. Our MSM and the US version which feeds ours doesn't need to conspire.

1. John Menadue is a single, ex-staffer of Whitlam. His opinions (and they are merely opinions) don't go any deeper than saying 'the Kremlin and CCP are the only two trustworthy governments'.

There's a saying along the lines of 'don't argue with a fool because he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience'. People ignore John Menadue for this reason.

2. Oh but you will keep repeating your same opinions over and over. I wish you'd just come clean on this one as the proof is in the pudding, bruh.

3. LOLz now you think my law degree's part of a global conspiracy? Mate I'll tell you how. During a messy divorce I went through a boot load of legal processes including being (to my knowledge) the first Australian to apply for access to their child in Japan via the Hague Convention. I enjoyed studying law because it taught me how to understand the relevant frameworks (whether I agreed with them or not) and keep grounded about my own stuff (which was mind bogglingly stressful) by doing so.

Other than that I simply committed all of my disposable income to study, attended night classes after my full-time job (5 evenings a week + Saturday morning) for multiple years (2 terms plus summer & winter school... yes, intense), did my readings during my spare time (often 500+ pages a day), attended discussion groups with other students in order to challenge my perspectives (many late nights discussing law) and did a little bit of work each day towards my assignments so that the work didn't pile up too much. No magic to it really.

4. 'MSM' is your quirky, pejorative, catch-all term for millions of independent sources from across the globe. Since you claim they all conspire against Russia/China I have asked you to prove this theory. You're questioning the independence of a LOT of decorated journalists and completely dismissing any research/analysis they do.

---

PS - my only other advice is that winners don't do drugs as they can stunt your growth

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Random Rooster; So what's your answer to the problem then Paddo? Negotiate with Putin and give him Ukraine in return who assurances he doesn't invade another country?

Jeffrey Sachs is an American professor from Columbia University NY. He has served as an advisor to 3 UN Secretaries General. Here, in part, is what he has to say about solving the problem:

"The main point for mediation is that all parties have legitimate interests and legitimate grievances. Russia wrongly and violently invaded Ukraine. The U.S. wrongly conspired in the overthrow of Yanukovych in 2014, and then heavily armed Ukraine while pushing NATO enlargement to encircle Russia in the Black Sea. Following Yanukovych, Ukrainian Presidents Petro Poroshenko and Volodymyr Zelensky refused to implement the Minsk II agreement.

Peace will come when the [B]U.S. backs away from further NATO enlargement towards Russia’s borders; Russia withdraws its military forces from Ukraine and backs away from the unilateral annexation of Ukrainian territory; Ukraine backs away from its attempts to retake Crimea and from its repudiation of the Minsk II framework; and all parties agree to secure the sovereign borders of Ukraine under the UN Charter and backed by the guarantees of the UN Security Council and other nations."[/B]

H&J are back on the job with more Tom Foolery.The King is telling us that there was a legit reason for invading Iraq - one that noone else in the world has yet considered not even the US which has been desperate for an excuse for an illegal attack since WMD went pear shaped.. There were terrorists there, plenty of them. No King, the Islamists came after the illegal invasion.
And we're also, somehow, back with Communism and "Little Legs" Putin which is an eerie echo of "Rag Head", "Gook" and "Slant Eye".He's even saying that those on the site who don't agree with him are all Communists. You're losing it son. Do you want a World War Salvo?

Once more Izzy, the human Eveready Battery, has taken time off from his appointments with billionaires to again attempt to ridicule the Menadue site. Jeez buddy, for the umpteenth, Menadue hosts the site and sources articles from all over, he pens very few. The likes of Keating, Barry Jones, John Hewson, Bob Carr among many others feature on it. Qanon it ain't.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

Mate most of us have never heard of your over quoted buddy. I understand you do sprout the term "Men are due..." though, as you loiter outside your public convenience of choice...."Glory Glory hole South Sydney...".

Given his apparent contributors I dont think we are missing much be the sounds..

You fret too much telling us your historical versions of events...bud it dont matter! Get in the now and out of that
tortured mind.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Not worth a reply as usual. What? Are Souffs communists too? Always suspected as much - Red (enough said) and Green (ditto).

Of course most haven't heard of the Menadue site, that's why I'm suggesting it as an adjunct to the MSM.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

I suspect it would largely be in concert with the MSM.

Thats why I recommend more roundly educated peoples watch Sky News to at least get another perspective...and then form their own views.

[King Salvo]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n974144]

U.S. backs away from further NATO enlargement towards Russia’s borders; Russia withdraws its military forces from Ukraine and backs away from the unilateral annexation of Ukrainian territory; Ukraine backs away from its attempts to retake Crimea and from its repudiation of the Minsk II framework; and all parties agree to secure the sovereign borders of Ukraine under the UN Charter and backed by the guarantees of the UN Security Council and other nations."[/B]

H&J are back on the job with more Tom Foolery.The King is telling us that there was a legit reason for invading Iraq - one that noone else in the world has yet considered not even the US which has been desperate for an excuse for an illegal attack since WMD went pear shaped.. There were terrorists there, plenty of them. No King, the Islamists came after the illegal invasion.
And we're also, somehow, back with Communism and "Little Legs" Putin which is an eerie echo of "Rag Head", "Gook" and "Slant Eye".He's even saying that those on the site who don't agree with him are all Communists. You're losing it son. Do you want a World War Salvo?

Once more Izzy, the human Eveready Battery, has taken time off from his appointments with billionaires to again attempt to ridicule the Menadue site. Jeez buddy, for the umpteenth, Menadue hosts the site and sources articles from all over, he pens very few. The likes of Keating, Barry Jones, John Hewson, Bob Carr among many others feature on it. Qanon it ain't.

Islamists were certainly there at the - Al Qaeda , Islamic Army, Ansar al-Sunnah , 1929 Revolution Brigades, Mahdi Army to name a few

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

If you actually view any Russian TV it's like the Soviet Union never went away - I have certainly never used those words which you have posted twice though

School Kids being indoctrinated in compulsory "Patriotic Lessons " raising the flag each morning and saluting while Russian National Anthem (the old Soviet Union one) is played - And where the dark history of the Soviet Union is not taught-Stalin back as a Savior of some description, Lenin etc - except Gorbachev as he's been expunged from Soviet History

Pioneers organisation(Communist youth league in USSR times) is back with even the same uniform -shorts/trousers-boys/skirt/trousers-girls - white shirt/blouse and compulsory red scarf and Basic Military Training is back as well for all secondary school students - military drills, salutes, and weapons training.


Sachs

Sachs credibility has virtually collapsed from being a regular on Vladimir Solovyov Kremlin Propaganda show on State run Russian TV

Solovyov wants Ukraine completely destroyed and then rebuilt and Russified , Berlin.London and Washington Nuked, considers life overrated and all should be prepared to die for the motherland in Ukraine or wherever (except him/Putin and co that is) , the work camps (Gulags) were needed as people needed to be re-educated etc etc .

I wouldn't put any credence on any of Sach's suggestions. personal opinions or assumptions.

Sachs is one of the main reasons why Russia is what it is today and why the move from Communism to a full Democracy didn't occur - Why they have the Corrupt Despot Authoritarian and Totalitarian regime System they now have.

Sachs "shock therapy" to move Russia from Communist to a new system, marked by freedom, democracy, and a vibrant, market economy failed dismally

Shock therapy is the belief that sudden and significant changes in a country's economic policies can transform a state-run economy into a free-market economy

What were the consequences of shock therapy in former USSR?

The shock therapy brought ruin to the economies and disaster upon the people of the entire region. The value of the Russian currency 'Ruble' declined dramatically. People lost all their savings due to high rate of inflation. The government withdrew subsidies which pushed large sections of the people into poverty.

[ism22]

Not worth a reply as usual. What? Are Souffs communists too? Always suspected as much - Red (enough said) and Green (ditto).

Of course most haven't heard of the Menadue site, that's why I'm suggesting it as an adjunct to the MSM.

We've all heard of your bloody opinions blog, mate!!!

Your assertion that millions of independent media outlets are pejoratively all one and the same 'MSM' in their analysis/reporting (purely because they are popular) is not a factual statement. As such, debating any further assumptions that rely on this claim can only lead to more absurdity.

We might as well rebrand the thread to... 'without the round earth propaganda, what is the TRUE story about the earth's shape?!?' I mean sure. If it's assumed knowledge that the earth's flat then you win. However, don't get all salty when people tell you it's round while putting the onus on you to prove it's flat. It's on you to disprove the status quo if you wanna challenge it. To do that you'll need more than a bunch of salty blog posts from a dude who was a political staffer in the 70's to a short-lived PM.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Jacks Fur Coat: I suspect it would largely be in concert with the MSM. Thats why I recommend more roundly educated peoples watch Sky News to at least get another perspective...and then form their own views.

Well the surest way to find out that Menadue is "in concert with the MSM" Jax is to read some of its articles. Our MSM is right wing plain and simple. Sky is Murdoch's perspective - he led the WMD cheer squad and is a neo con war monger.

For others there are a couple of excellent pieces featured today on the Menadue site, one of which might have been written to counter King's latest rant. What is the source of that load of tripe King? Give us the source. I tipped you'd give Professor Sachs the bucket of shit treatment - an advisor to 3 UN Secretaries General but a tool of the Kremlin - yeah, whatever! Whenever you mention a source like your fact check, it turns out to be and "arm chair amateur" with no methodology (see Wiki) but with a clear agenda.

By the way, the article to which I refer is called The Other America (or the 3 Missed Chances to Avoid WW3). It is a thought provoking read for those of us concerned about the direction of US foreign policy.

Yet more free assertion from the Eveready guy who, I note has yet another rare, almost unique quality - he's a speed reader par excellence - 500+ pages of legal precedent in his spare time (see#350), the rest of his day is presumably taken up with appointments with Billionaires, cobbling together eyewitness accounts to world crises, and dreaming up impenetrable analogies. Could anyone who got that stuff about the flat Earth please explain? I mean, how about this guy?

[Andrew Walker]

Only in Russia.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1491346870102560771

How thoroughly entertaining

[Paddo Colt 61]

My mother was like that (Mira that is not the fat fella). Very feisty and always up for a stink. At a cousin's wedding an uncle complained about the bride's sister's new boyfriend recently released from the Bay and takin' over in the household - switching the TV channels they were watching and stuff.

The wedding reception was in the area under the then Wiley Park Velodrome and as the night wore on Mum was getting slowly pissed and snaky at the bloke jiggling the sis around on his lap at the far end of the trestles. Eventually, steely eyed, she raised herself to full height and proceeded down the hall picking up a full jug on the way. "Hey jailbird!" she said as she drained the jug on his head, "get out of our family!". A year later they married.

She also near KOd a bloke with a kilo of spuds in a string bag. He had the temerity to suggest that she wind up a conversation that she was having with her sister in the local phone box. He was pissed and obnoxious and she objected to that. Otherwise, she was a very classy woman.

[ism22]

I suspect it would largely be in concert with the MSM. Thats why I recommend more roundly educated peoples watch Sky News to at least get another perspective...and then form their own views.

1. Our MSM is right wing plain and simple... Murdoch's perspective - he led the WMD cheer squad and is a neo con war monger.

2. There are a couple of excellent pieces featured today on the Menadue site. One is called "The Other America (or the 3 Missed Chances to Avoid WW3)". It is a thought provoking read for those of us concerned about the direction of US foreign policy.

3. Jizzy is a speed reader par excellence - 500+ pages of legal precedent in his spare time (see#350), the rest of his day is presumably taken up with appointments with Billionaires, cobbling together eyewitness accounts to world crises, and dreaming up impenetrable analogies. Could anyone who got that stuff about the flat Earth please explain? I mean, how about this guy?

1. As noted, the MSM comprises millions of independent outlets. Some left-wing, some right-wing... others are apolitical and focus on technical/professional analysis.

2. You seem to have emitted the fact that your 'excellent piece' was written by a 'Senior Fellow at American University in Moscow'. No PhD, no worry! Russia will take you in as a 'fellow' and pay you a cheque to be a white monkey so long as you toe the line with its propaganda.

3. For my flat-earth reference, Menadue preaches bollocks to the converted rather than providing objective insights/analysis. Further, his contributors are all highly unreliable (see the above point). Believing that China and Russia are utopian societies and everywhere else is broken is a flat-earth assumption. Hence why starting a discussion with that assumption will only lead to absurdity.

PS - I know it's difficult for you to fathom but yes... I read a shyte load of stuff and am pretty good at identifying obiter. It's fair to say that Menadue's ramblings are largely obiter.