The China Thing - are we on the wrong side of history?

[Paddo Colt 61]

Another critical issue, and one far more pressing than the geo political tilt going on in Eastern Europe, is the situation developing in our region because of the bellicose attitude of the USA towards China and the narrative with which our MSM media is in complete lock step.

As an opener, I would commend members to look at an article on the site johnmenadue.com (I have mentioned the site often in the past because the opinion is independent and credible - authors are ex public servants of high rank (Menadue was head of the PM and Cabinet under Labor and Liberal governments), academics with expertise (not "journos" at News who left school at Year 10 and write about celebrities when not at the pub) and prominent retired accomplished journalists. In short, contributors are not stooges.

Anyway, the article, "Everyone, Particularly the Chinese are Supposed to Yield to the Americans" is written by Howard Debenham a former Australian Diplomat with posings as High Commissioner to numerous posts in Asia and to Washington.

The article's argument is persuasive and reasoned and it will cause quite a lot of our membership cognitive dissonant angst but that is the point, we can't afford to rely on a MSM that runs an agenda.

A precis for those disinclined to go the full monte:

The writer begins with a short discussion of the role of US hawks and the centrality of the Military Industrial complex in US hegemony. He gives a run down of the comparative expenditure on US military and discusses the place of the recent failures in Afghanistan and Iraq. Failures which are due to the US having created the problem in the first instance (the arming of the Taliban V Russia, the overthrow of a progressive secular government in Iran and the installation of a dictator there in the 50s).

He then discusses the harmlessness of Chinese, the new US "enemy", global initiatives in contrast with America's record in that regard.

My view is that apart from being in lock step with the US for so called but dubious "alliance" purposes, China, and indeed Asia generally, has always been the object of fear mongering by Australian conservatives and the media mates who, in turn, take their cues from US and British media. Ironically the trade sanctions that got their dander up have seen that market loss filled by out mates in the US.

On reading, I got the pessimistic feeling that such authoritative voices should be widely listened to but aren't and the unfortunate sheeple wind up paying the real price for their indifference as they are now in Ukraine.

[zac]

i'm not sure about aukus - no harm in carrying a big stick and later deals with japan and korea have made our position less ango-sphere - but it will need better diplomacy with china than the current mob are capable of delivering.
it is in our interest to have a good relationship with china.

[Paddo Colt 61]

The first indications are that Labor is a fizzer with regard to easing tensions with China and revising relations with the USA. The intelligentsia in this country expected the beginning of a degree of independence in these vital matters but, no, business is pretty much as usual. The Sheeple of course don't know what way is up and care even less.

Albo off to the Ukraine - the only leader in the Southern hemisphere to do so. He demands that China condemn Russia's actions though not India, South Africa or the multitude of countries who are effectively neutral on the issue. We are stubbornly Anglophone yet we live in Asia, China is our main trading partner and that partnership saved us from the worst ravages of the GFC but the Cold War views of the Oz Establishment and the "Security services" prevail and will continue to unless the ALP wants to risk another coup.

"China's increasingly aggressive actions..." were what Albo cited as cause for great concern but let's look more closely at that which, by the way, the Sheeple firmly believe to be the case but a comparative analysis must surely give the lie to that nonsense. Eisenhower (a Republican) warned of the danger of the growing Military/Industrial Complex but the US has expanded its military on a super massive scale since WW2. China's present expenditure is $300 billion but the US spends $900 billion and its Defence spending is more than the next 7 nations' combined. Yet Richard Marles (ALP) says that the China's military expansion is greater than anything since WW2 - say what? And it made news around the US led world but it was not true. Why do I say that?

* The US has 750 off shore bases around the world staffed by uniformed personnel and China has one base.

* The US nuclear Carrier fleet is the largest in the world and the Carriers are the largest with more deck space than all the other navies combined. China has 2 conventional carriers with a 3rd coming.

*In S-E Asia the US has hundreds of fully armed bases surrounding China. 120 in Japan including the 7th Fleet, 73 in South Korea, 54 in Guam. Imagine if these numbers and the personnel were spread throughout South America.

Marles went on to say that China needed to be more transparent about its military but didn't reference the treatment of Julian Assange who tried to force the same issue on the US.

What a disappointment? Can there be any question that Australia and the ALP are more than willing to go along with the Anglo, biased, warmongering cabal led by Uncle Sam? Of course the Sheeple are more interested and upset by buffering on Netflix and the price of petrol which, of course, is down to the Russians didn't ya know.

[Andrew Walker]

As always a fascinating read.PC and I must say I enjoy your contributions to this forum.

[zac]

we need to talk with china but it probably doesn't hurt to shore up our alliance with like minded democracies first.

it's a complex issue and requires careful diplomacy. this is a good piece - Friday essay: if growing US-China rivalry leads to 'the worst war ever', what should Australia do? (theconversation.com)

[ism22]

Is John Menadue on the right side of anything?

He's basically a Whitlam government insider who taps a bunch of poorly dated, Whitlam-era mandarins for 'opinions'.

I get what Bojo, Trump and Abbott/Mal/Scomo were all trying to do, but their substance was too crass. With them all outta the way, seeing Penny Wong in action gives me some faith we're moving in the right direction. She clearly understands the region and has the nous to sure up relationships with Indonesia, Singapore, Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, pacific islands...etc while using language with China/Russia that stops their wolf warrior crap right in its tracks.

Whitlam and Fraser were both on the wrong side of history (for most things), and I don't think spruiking their philosophies as being groundbreaking in 2022 is particularly productive. Happy to have a retrospective look at what they did for their respective times, but China/USSR were different beasts back then.

[Paddo Colt 61]

A pretty far distant "Whitlam Government innsider". Fraser kept him on as head of PM & Cabinet and later appointed him as QANTAS CEO. The only negative, from my point of view, is that he recently embraced Catholicism. Likewise, the contributors to his site are not Whitlamite fossils though most have extensive academic, diplomatic and government experience so you're talking through your hat again -Ism.

Admittedly, P&I (Menadue's site) seldom reflects the views of the MSM and its writers (most of whom left school at Year 10 and "trained up" on the job) who daily spew out sycophantically the Western (read US) biased drivel about China, the USA and Russia that you treat as gospel.

[ism22]

How many times can you ask 'are we on the right side of history?' and then spew out a John Menadue angle as gospel?

As noted, neither Whitlam nor Fraser are on the 'right side of history'. Same goes for batty old mandarins from that era as well.

IMO there's not much more to say about it. You have made it clear that you actively support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and don't think Australia should be challenging China on anything. Eeerm fine. Your opinion on these matters has been noted.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Sounds very much like cancel culture but you could be right -Ism, why trust expertise? Might you be willing, as an alternative, to put me in touch with your all knowing Viet fishermen friends or similar?

[Andrew Walker]

Sounds very much like cancel culture but you could be right -Ism, why trust expertise? Might you be willing, as an alternative, to put me in touch with your all knowing Viet fishermen friends or similar?

LOL I think his fishermen friends you refer of are Japanese. But I get your point.

[ism22]

Sounds very much like cancel culture but you could be right -Ism, why trust expertise? Might you be willing, as an alternative, to put me in touch with your all knowing Viet fishermen friends or similar?

I'm going to visit my Japanese fishing mates in a few weeks actually, now that you mention it.

Sounds like you're trying to cancel culture them buddy. What did they ever do to you?

[Andrew Walker]

I'm going to visit my Japanese fishing mates in a few weeks actually, now that you mention it.

Sounds like you're trying to cancel culture them buddy. What did they ever do to you?

No once again ism you I think you have it wrong I am sure PC is very interested to hear the Japanese fishermens views on this

[ism22]

No once again ism you I think you have it wrong I am sure PC is very interested to hear the Japanese fishermens views on this

Just spoke to Miyagi-sensei... he told me to share with you an ancient Japanese proverb that was imported from some Chinese kung-fu philosophy.

Proverb: 'The grand master once said to the young deciple... don't listen to John Menadue, he's full of shit!'

Makes you think, ay?

[Paddo Colt 61]

It took the LNP 2 years to reverse public opinion regarding China using the old ploy of provoking a party and then reeling in horror and sanctimony at its reaction. And the Sheeple bought it of course. Compare that to the response to a poll in Ukraine conducted by a respected US agency (see johnmenadue.com). The poll found that 85% supported the leader and the army but 70% also thought that the blame for current circumstances should be shared by the US and their own government. A similar number thought the government was corrupt. What is amazing is that despite being caught up in the tumult of war, the population can still be so circumspect. No chance here.

Albanese takes up where the Libs left off but is more inflammatory with that ridiculous claim, "China needs to change, we haven't". Really? In sense he's right it could be Scomo talking but he's claiming our innocence in all that has transpired. Here's some of what transpired leaving out the demand for a Covid origin investigation.

We BLOCKED _
* Chinese exports of steel/aluminium products on grounds that the WTO rejected.
*Chinese investments here in non strategic enterprises like Lion Dairy.
* Chinese technology even though Huawei's 5g is acknowledged as the best available.

and we also made difficult Chinese investment here in any form. All this before any Chinese reaction. We started it.

We raided the homes of Chinese journalists and interrogated them in front of their families and we pressured universities to drop Chinese funded language activities. We behaved aggressively in the interests of the USA and we did so without having been provoked.

Of course we in the Pen didn't do any of those things, the Morrison "government" did. A bunch of religious extreme Right Wingers (in thrall to the Republican party) bent on welding us to the US did it to us and Albo's taken it up a notch but then our Sheeple aren't at all circumspect. Doomsday comin'.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=ism22; Just spoke to Miyagi-sensei... he told me to share with you an ancient Japanese proverb that was imported from some Chinese kung-fu philosophy. The grand master once said to the young deciple... don't listen to John Menadue, he's full of shit!

My, you are a militant. Would no doubt have been gung ho for Vietnam back in the day. Quite emotional for a lawyer.

Anyway, the young disciples wouldn't get the chance, Menadue hosts the site only and seldom contributes. As I've said often enough, the contributors are former ranking public servants, former diplomats, politicians and academics, people who have spent their working lives in the field. They're credible. Not like the bloke down the pub just knocked off from another tax free day courtesy of the GST - the sort of informant that you seem to rely on for your world view -Ism.