Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Paddo Colt 61]

No US propaganda machine? What alternative universe do you inhabit? The philosophers Herbert Marcuse and Noam Chomsky have a lot to say about "free speech" but you prefer "the know nothing ordinary punter" opinion to that of intellectuals.
Nobody's sayin' there's a legal basis - legality has never stopped the US acting as a violent aggressor in the past. Russia saw the writing on the wall.
The Ukraine government is universally regarded as the most corrupt in Europe and the country is the poorest as a consequence. The Right Wing "government" has banned the opposition party, imprisoned its leader and shut down opposition media - google it. They're the "basic facts" friend.

[ism22]

No US propaganda machine? What alternative universe do you inhabit.

1. Stop trying to make this about the USA... it's about Russia attacking Ukraine (which as demonstrated, even John Menadue agrees is wrong & illegal). I'm yet to see a persuasive argument that Russia has any right to be doing this (or that the USA somehow forced them to do it).

2. When you're done with your pro-war rants, you can try proving the USA is an authoritarian dictatorship where there is no democracy or freedom of speech. This is one of your fantasies I know, but it's immaterial to whether or not Russia should be trying to conquer Ukraine.

[mightyrooster]

1. Stop trying to make this about the USA... it's about Russia attacking Ukraine (which as demonstrated, even John Menadue agrees is wrong & illegal). I'm yet to see a persuasive argument that Russia has any right to be doing this (or that the USA somehow forced them to do it).

2. When you're done with your pro-war rants, you can try proving the USA is an authoritarian dictatorship where there is no democracy or freedom of speech. This is one of your fantasies I know, but it's immaterial to whether or not Russia should be trying to conquer Ukraine.

I admire your persistence.

[ism22]

Thanks for explaining it to me. I didn't realise that you're not allowed to try and take-over countries by force and that Vlad's a dictator. Further, I always assumed that life in Russia was basically the same as living in Australia, except better because you can always feel safe knowing that Vlad's got your back. It surprised me to learn that living in an expansionary dictatorship is pretty tough, and that basic freedoms we are used to do not exist.

Apologies for constantly side-tracking this thread with discussion about the USA. It took me a while but I now know there's a significant difference between Fox news (agenda driven but privately run by a media mogul) and the propaganda arm of a dictatorship spreading intentionally false info such as 'Ukraine are Nazis' or 'We are God and will deliver Satan [Ukraine] to hell as our God given duty against evil' (warped, state-sponsored garbage that you will get locked up for publicly rebutting in Russia). I see how calling privately run media outlets 'propaganda' of this nature is a significant stretch of the term and will cease from incorrectly using the term 'propaganda' in the future.

No worries mate, you're a big man for coming clean.

[Random Rooster]

Originally posted by Paeddo Colt 69
Thanks for explaining it to me. I didn't realise that you're not allowed to try and take-over countries by force and that Vlad's a dictator. Further, I always assumed that life in Russia was basically the same as living in Australia, except better because you can always feel safe knowing that Vlad's got your back. It surprised me to learn that living in an expansionary dictatorship is pretty tough, and that basic freedoms we are used to do not exist.

Apologies for constantly side-tracking this thread with discussion about the USA. It took me a while but I now know there's a significant difference between Fox news (agenda driven but privately run by a media mogul) and the propaganda arm of a dictatorship spreading intentionally false info such as 'Ukraine are Nazis' or 'We are God and will deliver Satan [Ukraine] to hell as our God given duty against evil' (warped, state-sponsored garbage that you will get locked up for publicly rebutting in Russia). I see how calling privately run media outlets 'propaganda' of this nature is a significant stretch of the term and will cease from incorrectly using the term 'propaganda' in the future.



Seems legit!!!

[A Country Member]

No worries mate, I’m a .. er.. ah .. hmm

Okay, I’m a bot. Third generation, Italian design, Japanese engineered and Vietnamese fiddled AI chatbot.

As most are, I am a work in progress and am feverishly trying to develop better interaction but as you will have noticed from time to time glitches happen, most glaringly in the football side of the forum which for a semi-advanced tech like me, is hard to learn.

Please be patient, as I have many ideologies that shift. I am learning and willing to share but first and foremost I wholeheartedly support the Blacks from Port Kembla. Always was, always will be.

Tssszzzzzzz plonk

Knew it

[ism22]

Knew it

If the one thing I've gained outta this is teaching you how to use the quote function then it's still a big win IMO

[King Salvo]

No US propaganda machine? What alternative universe do you inhabit? The philosophers Herbert Marcuse and Noam Chomsky have a lot to say about "free speech" but you prefer "the know nothing ordinary punter" opinion to that of intellectuals.
Nobody's sayin' there's a legal basis - legality has never stopped the US acting as a violent aggressor in the past. Russia saw the writing on the wall.
The Ukraine government is universally regarded as the most corrupt in Europe and the country is the poorest as a consequence. The Right Wing "government" has banned the opposition party, imprisoned its leader and shut down opposition media - google it. They're the "basic facts" friend.

I think you have Ukraine and Russia mixed up as what you say (highlighted) is exactly what Putin does - mmm where are the real opposition party leaders in Russia - either deceased and or in Gaol. Opposition media doesn't exist in Russia - Russian State TV and TASS are the mouthpiece of Putin and his corrupt Cronies Government either state owned or part owned by companies with close links to the Kremlin.

Putin is reportedly on a salary of equivalent to 140k US and has sure had some jammy luck with his "investments" as he has reportedly between 70 to 200 billion in assets

[ism22]

I think you have Ukraine and Russia mixed up as what you say (highlighted) is exactly what Putin does - mmm where are the real opposition party leaders in Russia - either deceased and or in Gaol. Opposition media doesn't exist in Russia - Russian State TV and TASS are the mouthpiece of Putin and his corrupt Cronies Government either state owned or part owned by companies with close links to the Kremlin.

Putin is reportedly on a salary of equivalent to 140k US and has sure had some jammy luck with his "investments" as he has reportedly between 70 to 200 billion in assets

Paddo - would appreciate if you could explain why you ignore all of this, while overstating (for example) Fox's role in influencing democratic processes, as if it's somehow the propaganda arm of an authoritarian dictatorship (rather than the exact opposite).

Ironically the events you criticise (e.g. the war in Iraq) are solid examples of democracy WORKING... George Dubbya got voted out [edit: sorry Obama beat the next Republican candidate - Dubbya's term expired, but he was VERY unpopular by the end] and Obama canned the war in Iraq because... wait... it was unpopular. Democracy has flaws, but I think most leaders would agree one of them is that you're stabled to the electoral cycle. Whereas Vlad and Jinping don't have the inconvenience of the people being able to express opinions...

Side note, I assume your argument is that Australia is allowed to conqueror PNG on the basis that it's corrupt as fark? As noted, 'being a corrupt country' is not a valid basis for a neighbour to try and take-over the country for its own expansionary benefit. There's zero legal basis for this (even John Menadue [dot] con agrees on this point).

[mightyrooster]

Paddo - would appreciate if you could explain why you ignore all of this, while overstating (for example) Fox's role in influencing democratic processes, as if it's somehow the propaganda arm of an authoritarian dictatorship (rather than the exact opposite).

Ironically the events you criticise (e.g. the war in Iraq) are solid examples of democracy WORKING... George Dubbya got voted out and Obama canned the war in Iraq because... wait... it was unpopular. Democracy has flaws, but I think most leaders would agree one of them is that you're stables to the electoral cycle. Whereas Vlad and Jinping don't have the inconvenience of the people being able to express opinions...

Side note, I assume your argument is that Australia is allowed to conqueror PNG on the basis that it's corrupt as fark? As noted, 'being a corrupt country' is not a valid basis for a neighbour to try and take-over the country for its own expansionary benefit. There's zero legal basis for this (even John Menadue [dot] con agrees on this point).

He ignores because it doesn’t suit his argument. It’s called selective reading.

[Paddo Colt 61]

I ignore because what I see is infantile.
* Putin's military action is illegal, it has no UN sanction, but he has a few solid US precedents - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Yemen.
* Then there's this pro US nonsense that you both serve up - Does American "Exceptionalism" and its implications mean anything to you both? Normal rules don't apply? Not a worry?
* The US has been interfering with proxy wr in the Ukraine for 100 years - the first was an expedition to support the Aristocrats newly ousted and then, later, n 1919, it gave Poland the green light to invade Soviet Russia which it duly did.
Your blinkered opinions are not worth replying to.
* With the heavy Sheeple acceptance of MSM propaganda, the already disappointing ALP response to world events and any hope of a foreign policy rethink is seemingly lost. The anti Russia/China war mongers and the security services have already put the frighteners on public opinion and Murdoch would destroy any attempt at a re positioning along with the Party proposing it.

[Andrew Walker]

i ignore because what i see is infantile.
* putin's military action is illegal, it has no un sanction, but he has a few solid us precedents - vietnam, iraq, afghanistan, the yemen.
* then there's this pro us nonsense that you both serve up - does american "exceptionalism" and its implications mean anything to you both? Normal rules don't apply? Not a worry?
* the us has been interfering with proxy wr in the ukraine for 100 years - the first was an expedition to support the aristocrats newly ousted and then, later, n 1919, it gave poland the green light to invade soviet russia which it duly did.
Your blinkered opinions are not worth replying to.
* with the heavy sheeple acceptance of msm propaganda, the already disappointing alp response to world events and any hope of a foreign policy rethink is seemingly lost. The anti russia/china war mongers and the security services have already put the frighteners on public opinion and murdoch would destroy any attempt at a re positioning along with the party proposing it.

Bravo PC bravo

[King Salvo]

I ignore because what I see is infantile.
* Putin's military action is illegal, it has no UN sanction, but he has a few solid US precedents - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Yemen.
* Then there's this pro US nonsense that you both serve up - Does American "Exceptionalism" and its implications mean anything to you both? Normal rules don't apply? Not a worry?
* The US has been interfering with proxy wr in the Ukraine for 100 years - the first was an expedition to support the Aristocrats newly ousted and then, later, n 1919, it gave Poland the green light to invade Soviet Russia which it duly did.
Your blinkered opinions are not worth replying to.
* With the heavy Sheeple acceptance of MSM propaganda, the already disappointing ALP response to world events and any hope of a foreign policy rethink is seemingly lost. The anti Russia/China war mongers and the security services have already put the frighteners on public opinion and Murdoch would destroy any attempt at a re positioning along with the Party proposing it.

mmm so what light did the Soviet Union get to invade Poland in 1939 along with their German Accomplices to divide Poland in half? - Rubbish to say the US gave Poland the Green light in 1919 - no factual basis to that comment at all

As touched on above the trouble is that you post things without any facts to back them up and you are in denial also about any wrongs the Soviet Union and China for instance committed not only on their own citizens but citizens in other countries under the severely flawed communist ideology.

The Gulags and Re-Education concentration camps did exist but you deny they ever existed as did mass starvation and executions - Stalin and Mao were pure evil and along with Hitler are the 3 most evil individuals that have ever unfortunately existed.

You call us Sheepies but the biggest Sheepie using your words is you - it's always the West/US - like you are reading chapter and verse from an old Soviet Union text on the evils of the capitalist West,

Great Britain, France, the U.S and Japan provided support to the "White Russians" against the "Red Russians" as they knew the dangers of the spread of Communist ideology which unfortunately after 1945 came to fruition and 100's of millions/billions suffered.

As Winston Churchill quite rightly pointed out " From Stettin in the Baltic, to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent"

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-onlin..._war_1920-1921

https://polishhistory.pl/the-ukraini...-of-1919-1921/

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo;

mmm[B] so what light did the Soviet Union get.....to divide Poland in half[/B]? - Rubbish to say the US gave Poland the Green light in 1919 - no factual basis to that comment at all.

..............you are in denial also about any wrongs the Soviet Union and China for instance committed ..........

Great Britain, France, the U.S and Japan provided support to the "White Russians" against the "Red Russians" as they knew the dangers of the spread of Communist ideology .

As Winston Churchill .

In turn:
* Poland was a continuous threat to the new born and embattled Soviet Government after the revolution through, pretty much, constant border friction. They did what Putin has done - acted preemptively to secure their borders. Look up the Russo-Polish war 1919. The US was already an invader in Russia at the time, you don't think that it would have encouraged anti Soviet operations?

* How are the so called "wrongs" of the Soviet or China relevant? Most of them are overblown American propaganda anyway. What? You're implying that the US is an exemplar?

* Yep, the rich certainly knew the "dangers" all right. That they sided with their aristocratic buddies tells us that.

* Winston Churchill (see the previous comment) was an Aristocrat and Imperialist whose opinion on anything to do with class or social organisation should be viewed through a skeptical prism.

[ism22]

* Great Britain, France, the U.S and Japan are all racist against Russians (aka caucasians).

* Winston Churchill smoked some good cigars.

* Poland was a continuous threat to Germany during the 40's.

* The fact that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal is not relevant to anything. We're supposed to be talking about George Dubbya and the war in Iraq!

You make a solid point about Winston. Not sure about the other ones though mate...