Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

What are China's "incursions" exactly?

All off-topic (we're discussing Russia's unsuccessful invasion of Ukraine) but for starters...

- Hong Kong (paramilitary police have been deployed & protesters are sent to China... the Hong Kong government is now stacked with whoever the CCP wants).

- Taiwan (their airspace and waters constantly have Chinese military 'just passing by'... further, the CCP has made many attempts to try and stack their government with CCP figures so they can do a soft take-over).

- Russia (believe it or not). My father's wife is 'Russian Chinese'... Mao drew a line at one point in time and decided her Russian village was 'China' (hence why they farked off to 'Straya). Everybody living there is white, they speak Russian, they eat Russian food, they have relatives in Russia, they're 'on the border' and if it was more than a few cr@ppy little towns (plus Russia was minded to challenge China on border issues), they'd probably be like 'hey that really is part of Russia ay' rather than sending troops into Ukraine. I mean use your head... why is Russia trying to steal Ukraine rather than sending troops into these parts of China to say 'your mother is here to take back her children'.

- Mongolia - try going there! Try. It's blocked because there's constant protests in which the military and paramilitary police arrest all protesters (a bunch of YouTubers got banned from China for filming Mongolian culture & had to escape using clandestine means). Local governments are stacked with CCP figures rather than true locals... it's a mess.

- Tibet... same situation as Mongolia.

- East Kyrgyztan... millions of people have been sent to concentration camps for 're-education', they're made to do forced labour and the CCP forces them to create seriously awkward looking 'everything is okay... we just want the west to stop interfering' videos at gunpoint.

Russia and China are both democracies... the people totally want these governments.

I've already addressed this. The People's Democratic Republic of Korea is a 'democracy'. A feature of all fascist dictatorships is that...

- There is a token vote where the leader wins 100% of the votes (or thereabouts).

- The leader is like a God... you will be arrested and tortured (again, electric wires on your gonads) if you disagree. Thus, you don't publicly disagree unless those gonads are particularly large (and they won't be after electrocution).

- The name always has to be some frigging longwinded waffle about the people and democracy rather than just 'Australia'. They then use this on the international scene by saying 'we won't turn up if you call our neighbours what they call themselves... all our neighbours HAVE to have "China" in their name and our name for them or we're not turning up'. In short, they're trolls who try to manipulate language to the max rather than just calling a spade a spade. Thus, their names for shyte are meaningless and should be not be accepted at face value.

[Paddo Colt 61]

A comment on recent posts.

Salvo. The Sex Pistols ffs? Eminently qualified and quotable on Geopolitics?

West/East is not about geography, it's a political delineation which is a hangover from the Cold War. Always fearful of a repeat of something like the German invasion Russia went broke trying to keep parity with a US instigated arms race. The Eurocentric terms as you describe them still apply.

Random Rooster. I'm saying that in wartime combatant nations routinely censor information in a draconian fashion. What do you think private (ie "non state owned") media is? Bastions of integrity for whom truth is non negotiable? Come on, take a regular look at Media Watch, consider the role of Newscorp bias in Oz public life. One way or another the so called "Free Press" is partisan and if you want a good example of shutting down think about the US military's shelling of the Al Jazeera headquarters in Baghdad in the early stages of its invasion of Iraq. You often talk sense RR but sometimes....

Yanukovych headed a democratically elected government. It's decision not to identify with the West was perfectly legitimate since it was elected by the majority of Ukrainians (You and I have to cop the decisions of Lib governments). Popular sentiment whipped up by the USA led to Right wing militia, armed by the USA, invading the parliament forcing the ELECTED government to decamp. The promise was a new election but that didn't happen. The Right simply filled the vacuum. Big red light went on in Russia and so it immediately resecured the strategically important Crimea (the predominantly Russian population voted for autonomy from the Ukraine in a UN supervised plebiscite by the way).

And what's all this nonsense about "they" kicked him out" implying that the sheeple rose up - Yeah right. It is clear from all that went before who "they" really are and it ain't the sheeple, they just want to keep watchin the football.

Random and Mick. No one knows what the diplomatic end game will look like. Russia's stated war aims are to demilitarise and de nazify Ukraine. Beyond that, there are suggestions that there could be a division of the country into independant enclaves joining in a kind of federation and that Ukraine will declare itself neutral as Austria and others have done. Whatever, you can be sure that the US will double down on provocation in the future - they sent them broke once.

[Random Rooster]

Paddo im not sure how you can justify Russia shutting down all the media outlets that are just reporting what is happening on the streets of Moscow. We went from watching the protesters being whisked away by state police….. to watching Putin blatantly lie in a Trump- like rally. I didn’t agree with the messages in the recent rallies in Canberra but I sure as hell would have been more alarmed if the government completely shut down any media outlets that reported about the event.

Regarding Yanukovych- he wasn’t elected as a dictator. The parliament and people wanted to be aligned with Europe and not Russia- why would he go against their wishes? His fleeing to the safety of Moscow after he was ousted says it.

There’s no way Russia is going to be able to demilitarise the Ukrainians. Theres going to be 40 million Ukrainians left that will never accept Russia being involved in their country. Add to that all the young boys and girls who have become refugees ….will one day will be young adults- and a lot of them would have lost a parent or relative in this big mess- and will one day come back and not for a holiday!

As far as the de Nazifying of Ukraine- it doesn’t deserve a answer. It’s a bit like Trump still talking about all the evidence of fraud in the 2020 electrician . Whatever

I note that the Russian stock market had a soft opening last night- and without equity trading. Seems like the Russian government isn’t in the mood to explain to the Russian folk why their portfolio has lost 90% of its value. As for the outside investors- dont think they will be in a hurry soon to reinvest…. Would you?

[bondi.boy]

Ah yes, Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Unbridled slaughter.
...while the rest of the world, in reality, just watches...Putin threatening to nuke anyone who intervenes.
Russia is the Chair of the UN Security Council, vetoes anything it chooses.
LOL

Tonite on my news was shown a mall bombed by a Cruise missile.
And carpet bombing of industrial areas.

Russia is obviously intent on turning the
whole of Ukraine into rubble.
Housing complexes destroyed.

Population of Ukraine was 44m before the invasion.
Now 41m as 3 million have left.
If these 41m don't get out soon...NATO Europe should find ways to get them out...
then slaughtered they will surely be, one way or another.

Dumb European nations closed their nuke power plants, coal mines, oil and gas fields..."climate change"...with
Madame Merkel seemingly ruling the roost..
...and got into bed with Russia...big mistake.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Your Sky News updates are much appreciated BB. Saves me for one the task of having to watch.

[ism22]

West/East is not about geography, it's a political delineation which is a hangover from the Cold War.

Yay - we're getting somewhere!!!

As I've noted on multiple occasions... when YOU say 'the East', you mean PRC, Russia and North Korea. One cannot ignore the fact these are the world's three most prominently restrictive, fascist dictatorships. In short, people are highly skeptical of ANYTHING they say for good reason...

These three are not the new world order and I'm happy to say the rest of the world is on the 'right side of history' in opposing Russia's expansionary invasion of Ukraine.

Dunno what the world's done to make you so critical of the freedoms we have all been afforded. However, as you've noted, there's absolutely no chance you'd put your money where your mouth is and leave. To me this is your most telling remark.

[mightyrooster]

Your Sky News updates are much appreciated BB. Saves me for one the task of having to watch.

Lol, you wouldn’t have watched anyway. Nor would I for that matter, but that’s beside the point.
Also, I don’t see how there’s going to be a diplomatic solution now, given what’s been going on there for the past month.

[mightyrooster]

Yay - we're getting somewhere!!!

As I've noted on multiple occasions... when YOU say 'the East', you mean PRC, Russia and North Korea. One cannot ignore the fact these are the world's three most prominently restrictive, fascist dictatorships. In short, people are highly skeptical of ANYTHING they say for good reason...

These three are not the new world order and I'm happy to say the rest of the world is on the 'right side of history' in opposing Russia's expansionary invasion of Ukraine.

Dunno what the world's done to make you so critical of the freedoms we have all been afforded. However, as you've noted, there's absolutely no chance you'd put your money where your mouth is and leave. To me this is your most telling remark.

That’s the DEMOCRATIC PRC, North Korea and Russia don’t forget. The democratic dictatorships are so much better.

[Random Rooster]

Your Sky News updates are much appreciated BB. Saves me for one the task of having to watch.

I wonder if Sky News has any post South Australian election updates?

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=ism22;
.....One cannot ignore the fact these are the world's three most prominently restrictive, fascist dictatorships. In short, people are highly skeptical of ANYTHING they say for good reason...

"People are highly skeptical". I'd imagine after the biased tripe that Murdoch et al bombard them with, they would be. Nothing the MSM relates improves their understanding however. Most people believe the first opinion that they hear (Thucydides).

Neither Russia nor China are dictatorships. You need to consult the definition.

[ism22]

Neither Russia nor China are dictatorships. You need to consult the definition.

Dictatorship: A dictatorship is a form of government characterised by a single leader or group of leaders that hold government power promised to the people and little or no toleration for political pluralism or independent media.

Both fit the definition...
- Single leader/group: CCP and All-Russia People's Front... nobody else holds any power in politics (leaders are treated like gods & cannot be criticised)
- Power [falsely] promised to people: tick... 'People's Republic of China' and 'All-Russia People's Front' (good old phoney references to 'the people' in such names)
- Little/no tolerance of pluralism or independent media: tick

[Random Rooster]

Neither Russia nor China are dictatorships. You need to consult the definition.

Does the Democratic People's Republic of Korea fall under the same definition? They have an election every 3-4 years whereby only the incumbent can win ....just like Russia and China!

[Paddo Colt 61]

I've explained the democratic nature of the CCP previously. 95+ million members vote for representatives to a central congress. The sheeple are left out much to their relief I'd imagine. (96% of the people express support for their government (Brookings Institute research) and why wouldn't they?

Russia is a Democracy as much as Australia is. 65% of Russians vote for Putin. Swapping President and PM is constitutional. I don't think the US can hold itself out as an exemplar. There you vote for rapacious capitalists A or B and often 60% don't bother.

North Korea is no different to our (and the US) great ally Saudi Arabia. You should have added that to the hate list though to be fair Murdoch never does so you wouldn't be aware.

As a footnote, the Libs (and elements in Labor) are frothing this morning about an upcoming Belt and Road agreement between the Solomon Islands and China. There is much huffing and puffing but doesn't such concern about our security mirror Russia's concern about US interference in Ukraine. It doesn't?? Oh I forgot, them's the baddies anything that that have to say about anything is bullshit right?

[mightyrooster]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n921963][QUOTE=ism22;
.....One cannot ignore the fact these are the world's three most prominently restrictive, fascist dictatorships. In short, people are highly skeptical of ANYTHING they say for good reason...

"People are highly skeptical". I'd imagine after the biased tripe that Murdoch et al bombard them with, they would be. Nothing the MSM relates improves their understanding however. Most people believe the first opinion that they hear (Thucydides).

Neither Russia nor China are dictatorships. You need to consult the definition.

[/QUOTE]

No Russia is technically not a dictatorship but Putin does head a Totalitarian style of government.

[Paddo Colt 61]

No, totalitarian means that every aspect of a nation's functioning is controlled by the leadership. The fact that Russia is a democracy dispels the authoritarian label.