Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[A Country Member]

Just confirming... this is all about Russia invading the Ukraine in an attempt to steal the country. This is illegal and it's why lotsa people are getting killed.

PS - Paddo can you please stick to the one account? Thanks mate.

IsmZZ - In your role as a lawyer, isn’t it best to arbitrate and use a conciliatory approach rather than meeting for a ‘war’ of prosecution and defence ?

Vlad tried on numerous occasions and through many different ways to express his dissatisfaction that the west was encroaching too far into Eastern Europe and approaching his borders.

A failure by the EU and the US to listen to his requests. They were warned but maybe that’s what the US wanted?

[mightyrooster]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n921107][QUOTE=mightyrooster; I think you are being very selective with your pedantic application of the term Nazi. Also, how do you think Putin would react if another country decided to conduct a special operation in Russia in order to demilitarise it? Would that trigger an emotional reaction from him?
As for my inaccurate use of grammar, I will concede to your superior knowledge. English was not one of my strongest subjects.

No MR, your language usage is very good.

The effective teaching of writing has largely gone to pot in modern schools though kids now read a lot more (on devices). Young teachers (and most older ones) don't know how to approach writing improvement systematically while also focusing on the strengths and weaknesses of individuals in a class of 30. As things are, most sit the HSC with the writing skill that they brought from primary. It yet remains to be seen whether the increased reading on devices shows up in Naplan literacy scores.

Fascism (or Nazism) is not difficult to define. Its characteristics are extreme nationalism (xenophobia), racist attitudes, anti Left phobia (because the Left is Internationalist), authoritarian and anti Democratic - the individual is subservient to the Fascist state.

The Nazi party was Fascist but the attitude didn't die out with them, the philosophy has endured for millennia - The Fasces was the symbol of the Roman state.

The social nucleus of Fascism is the lower middle class - the petty bourgeoisie - small business, farmers, tradies. People of modest education but big material aspirations who are interested in their own betterment but are often disappointed. Looking for scapegoats they focus on Unions that prevent (or try to prevent) labour exploitation), progressive government, minorities and external "enemies".

Fascism also appeals to the upper class - anti communist themselves but educated and often unwilling to support the extremism of the Petty Burgers they nonetheless seek to use those grievances to their own purposes - Johnny Howard and his tacit support for One Nation (a classic Fascist manifestation).

The dumber elements of the working class can also be attracted to it despite the fact that there's nothing in it for them - dumb xenophobia, confusion, gullibility and a militaristic talisman like ANZAC all help.

Finally, we're now seeing how "Russia would react if another country decided....to demilitarise it" - that other country is the US via its proxy, Ukraine and Russia has responded emphatically.

[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the lesson Paddo, but you didn't need to go to so much trouble as I know the difference between fascism and communism, fascism and nazism (which are not one and the same, as one is a sub-category of the other), nazism and neo-nazism.

I also know the difference between democracy and totalitarianism.

I also know that in theory Russia is supposed to be a Federal Democratic State. However Putin, in the course of the past 20 plus years has managed to change election laws which have, coincidentally, enabled him to remain in power as either President or Prime Minister for that entire time.

[Rooster1908]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster;n921120]

Thanks for the lesson Paddo, but you didn't need to go to so much trouble as I know the difference between fascism and communism, fascism and nazism (which are not one and the same, as one is a sub-category of the other), nazism and neo-nazism.

I also know the difference between democracy and totalitarianism.

I also know that in theory Russia is supposed to be a Federal Democratic State. However Putin, in the course of the past 20 plus years has managed to change election laws which have, coincidentally, enabled him to remain in power as either President or Prime Minister for that entire time.

Mighty Roosters , to quote whoever said it. Me thinks you are fighting a loosing battle

[Paddo Colt 61]

I respect that you take an interest in things MR and I did not intend to talk down to you but in an earlier post you seemed to be dismissing the very real Nazi factor when you wrote "big scary Nazis running the country". It seemed to me on reading that you felt the whole thing was a flight of imagination, that Fascism was no longer a concern for anyone. It seems that I was wrong in that assumption, but regrettably, have failed to convince you. Concerns about Nazism are very real in Russia they had 25 million killed just 70+ years ago.

There is no one version of Democracy. We have the English Westminster system which is representative ie we elect people to represent us unlike say Athens where the crowd voted on every single proposal.

China has a democratic version as well. China is Capitalist but the laws are made by a central congress members of which are elected by the 90 million plus members of the CCP. Business there is supervised to work for the good of the community. And hasn't that community benefitted? Soon becoming the the most powerful economy globally (America's banker no less - maybe that's what all of the trouble is about) with a Middle Class larger than all of the Wests' combined and it has 96% population support (as recorded by the Brookings Institute at Yale University). China's democratic system is inferior to ours you still say?

Our "democracy" which you seem to elevate in comparison to, say, Russia is pretty much what is called in recent Political Science terms, a Competitive Autocracy. That is the name newly given to states that promote Individualism economically but have leadership which is populist and is endorsed in every way by a compliant, player media on behalf of global corporations. We have a bullshit democracy in which elected governments can be sacked by the conservative side of politics if things are not to their liking or to the liking of the USA. Of course Conservative governments can't be sacked by the progressive side, attempting that would have troops out. You also need influential co conspirators on your side like High Court judges. Some Democracy here!

If Russians disliked what Putin was doing, he'd be voted out - he hasn't been.

[mightyrooster]

I respect that you take an interest in things MR and I did not intend to talk down to you but in an earlier post you seemed to be dismissing the very real Nazi factor when you wrote "big scary Nazis running the country". It seemed to me on reading that you felt the whole thing was a flight of imagination, that Fascism was no longer a concern for anyone. It seems that I was wrong in that assumption, but regrettably, have failed to convince you. Concerns about Nazism are very real in Russia they had 25 million killed just 70+ years ago.

There is no one version of Democracy. We have the English Westminster system which is representative ie we elect people to represent us unlike say Athens where the crowd voted on every single proposal.

China has a democratic version as well. China is Capitalist but the laws are made by a central congress members of which are elected by the 90 million plus members of the CCP. Business there is supervised to work for the good of the community. And hasn't that community benefitted? Soon becoming the the most powerful economy globally (America's banker no less - maybe that's what all of the trouble is about) with a Middle Class larger than all of the Wests' combined and it has 96% population support (as recorded by the Brookings Institute at Yale University). China's democratic system is inferior to ours you still say?

Our "democracy" which you seem to elevate in comparison to, say, Russia is pretty much what is called in recent Political Science terms, a Competitive Autocracy. That is the name newly given to states that promote Individualism economically but have leadership which is populist and is endorsed in every way by a compliant, player media on behalf of global corporations. We have a bullshit democracy in which elected governments can be sacked by the conservative side of politics if things are not to their liking or to the liking of the USA. Of course Conservative governments can't be sacked by the progressive side, attempting that would have troops out. You also need influential co conspirators on your side like High Court judges. Some Democracy here!

If Russians disliked what Putin was doing, he'd be voted out - he hasn't been.

Paddo, I am aware of Fascist elements within Ukraine.
I am aware of the US and NATO's continued encroachment towards Russia's borders - ie Ukraine.- since the end of the Soviet Union.
I am aware this is what set Putin off.
I am aware of Russia's massive casualty rate to Germany in WWII.
'Big scary Nazi's' is my reference to Putin's use of the term 'denazifying' in reference to his special military operation in Ukraine - presumably he means defascistifying or de-extreme-right-winging, or de-NATO-ing or whatever crazy name you may want to call it. But then 'denazifying' sounds so much more sinister doesn't it?
I am also aware that the current leader of Ukraine is Jewish.

I have a degree in Economics. I may have graduated a long time ago, but I'd like to think I've retained some basic knowledge there.

Your description of democracy is very cynical. You seem envious of China and Russia. I know where I'd prefer to live.

And as for your last sentence, he hasn't exactly made it easy for them to vote him out with his unique Putin- style democratic system, no matter how much you like to talk it up.

[mightyrooster]

[QUOTE=Rooster1908;n921129]

Mighty Roosters , to quote whoever said it. Me thinks you are fighting a loosing battle

Perhaps 08. For someone who is always asking others to take a more balanced, big picture view of things, Paddo is very narrow sighted and blinded by his distaste for all things US and West.

[Rooster1908]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster;n921150]

Perhaps 08. For someone who is always asking others to take a more balanced, big picture view of things, Paddo is very narrow sighted and blinded by his distaste for all things US and West.

100% and I have him blocked but do suspect he is not here for the footy.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster: Perhaps 08. For someone who is always asking others to take a more balanced, big picture view of things, Paddo is very narrow sighted and blinded by his distaste for all things US and West.

Though I dearly love him, '08 is probably the last person to bounce off on this thread. From what he's told us in the past, he's probably over there now or, at least, making plans. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie!!

I wouldn't fancy living in China or Russia because I'm not Chinese or Russian but I'm not about to demonise either on the strength of what I might read in the MSM. Again, our media sources just about all foreign news from US and British news services.

Just watching the the Australian Plutocratic Establishment at work would make anyone cynical. What's to be said when members of the highest judiciary in the land - upholding of the Constitution indeed its primary function - take a prominent part in a partisan Constitutional coup d'etat? Oz is not highly ranked on International surveys of Democratic function.

Country Member has posted an illuminating article from The Nation on the other Ukraine thread. I do hope that you will have a look at it.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Pipe dream.

Australia is one of the wealthiest countries on Earth. Floods, fires, housing, education, transport - everything vital to our modern lives - could be adequately catered for if the populace would accept a cut on the billions spent on defence, on middle class welfare and sundry others, but take Defence. The billions budgeted are eye watering. We could live in splendid isolation here, so far away from everything. NZ did it showing independence re nuclear and cut ANZUS. They have a small defence force almost entirely involved in peace keeping. But "Defence" has been made sacrosanct in Conservative politics which regards fear as stock in trade. The populace through innate racism, in thrall to ANZAC, ignorance or just being sheeple have been revved up for over a century about Chinese "threat" and have come to accept it as fact. No threats in the past materialised or came to anything, except for us being on the losing side in Korea and in the 'Nam which we had attacked in fact. As an aside, didn't we attack Vietnam just on a US inspired hunch that it would threaten us at some time in the future? Isn't that what we're accusing Putin of doing in Ukraine?

Anyway, the Scandinavians are in a far more dangerous part of the world and regularly they are touted as model societies (ie they spend most of the GDP pie in the society) but they don't maintain huge military resources, theirs are token at best and there is a history of neutrality. Could we not copy that model? Resources spent on us - the fire and flood victims, the disabled, the first nation health problems, Medicare? And I mean spent - state of the art rapid response to the climate disasters that surely lie ahead. No more tollways which are the sharp end of neo-con economics and they're not going away. Maybe fast rail and an effective climate policy - coping with disaster is expensive.

[ism22]

So basically... Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine. They are continuing to break shyte and kill people.

> IsmZZ - In your role as a lawyer, isn’t it best to arbitrate and use a conciliatory approach rather than meeting for a ‘war’ of prosecution and defence ?

It's quite easy actually. If somebody trolls me with a ridiculously onerous request and then threatens physical violence when I refuse to give in then I walk (and call the police).

Back to this lesson I taught you about an 'argument to moderation'. Sometimes one person's right, the other person's wrong and there is no acceptable mid-point. I'm just there to look after my client's best interests... not to make sure all the losing parties are happy with the outcome of every commercial deal that they lose out on. And yeah! That's why I get threats from thugs like Vlad all the time (often while I'm trying to put my kids to sleep). No, I don't try to mediate with them and re-negotiate in a way that would please them.

[King Salvo]

I think Paddo's source is http://government.ru/en/news/

No this the site

https://tass.com/?utm_source=google....=google.com.au

[King Salvo]

And this one too

https://cprf.ru/

[Paddo Colt 61]

Your point is King? Russia is NOT Communist. The Russian communist party is opposed to Putin and it contests every election in that role.

Are you saying that any position not a US one is to be dismissed summarily? What in particular did you find offensive or inaccurate on the site that you pointed to?

US = good and anyone who opposes it = bad seems to be your position. MR has some qualms about that but manages to put them behind her. No biggie, it's the position of the majority people who, by the way, have no interest in politics whatsoever (Guardian survey following the 2016 election in Oz) and, apparently, very short memories.

The US as white knight is baffling given the evidence of all our eyes since WW2 though most sheeple are in thrall to the soft power - music, movies, sports, celebrities. In your case, however, there might also be a religious affiliation factor - most believers dislike the Atheism of Communism. Ironically, when I was a lad, my atheist mum used to urge me to question the Catholic hostility to Communism given that Cheesus was pretty much on side. The Marist Brothers never cited atheism but they did point out to me that Communism was anti private property. (Ya don't say??). Such issues usually emerged in Religion lessons and I asked the same question 5 years running.

[Paddo Colt 61]

And on matters religious, I just heard that Hillsong main guy, Brian Houston, is being accused by "Elders" of moral delinquency having been found drunk in a lady's bedroom. Well I never. This is the same man from whom Scomo receives moral guidance and, possibly you do too King? No matter really, religions are hypocritical, their stripe is irrelevant.

Just like their unshakeable faith in the goodness of America, some Sheeple believe that a mortal or group of mortals has some kind of connection with a God/s. How primitive is that? The Life of Brian wasn'r so much about the Jesus myth as it was about Sheeple. Every scene puts people and their gullibility, stubbornness, gormlessness and perfidy on display.

[ism22]

> Just like their unshakeable faith in the goodness of America, some Sheeple believe that a mortal or group of mortals has some kind of connection with a God/s. How primitive is that?

This has literally nothing to do with the USA though. Russia has invaded Ukraine.

I get that you don't like people randomly hating on China/Russia as some random boogieman kinda position. However, your position of going 'they are the good guys in all this and the USA's the real aggressor here, you stupid sheep - give what Russia's saying a second chance' isn't demonstrating that you have a strong grasp of what's going on. You're just sounding overly critical of democracies... globally.

At the heart of it, I think you're wrong in asserting that two fascist, expansionary dictatorships are on the 'right side of history' while the rest of the world are 'sheeple' who will all be proven wrong.

No doubt history will prove some people wrong. However, I don't think supporting Russia/China's violent incursions into neighbouring countries is the 'right side of history'.