Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Paddo Colt 61]

What are China's "incursions" exactly? China calls itself a Democracy and in one sense it is (see my earlier reference to Chinese Democracy) and so does Russia which has elections. Not good enough you say? Putting our model up as an exemplar? Or the US and Britain? Plutocracies all. Compared to what the Chinese model has achieved in such a short time might you not think that the Plutocracies might want to shut it down lest the unflattering comparison reflect on them badly which should be the case. The Chinese model cuts out the sheeple and privately owned media - re the former (we have an amazing 85% who confess to no interest in politics) why should they vote and be guided in that unwanted duty by a American war mongering ego maniac? The Chinese voters are the 93 million members of the CCP all of whom gain membership on a proven record of public service and activism. In short, they are interested in politics.

So numerous US invasions over the decades are on the right side of history? A privileged life usually means a deeply inculcated sense of conformity to conservative thinking. You're a prime example. You think name calling and mock incredulity mixed with a poor grasp of history (an exclusively Western one) qualifies you as someone to be listened to - wrong. We can read all that tosh in the Telegraph or watch it on Sky.

[mightyrooster]

What are China's "incursions" exactly? China calls itself a Democracy and in one sense it is (see my earlier reference to Chinese Democracy) and so does Russia which has elections. Not good enough you say? Putting our model up as an exemplar? Or the US and Britain? Plutocracies all. Compared to what the Chinese model has achieved in such a short time might you not think that the Plutocracies might want to shut it down lest the unflattering comparison reflect on them badly which should be the case. The Chinese model cuts out the sheeple and privately owned media - re the former (we have an amazing 85% who confess to no interest in politics) why should they vote and be guided in that unwanted duty by a American war mongering ego maniac? The Chinese voters are the 93 million members of the CCP all of whom gain membership on a proven record of public service and activism. In short, they are interested in politics.

So numerous US invasions over the decades are on the right side of history? A privileged life usually means a deeply inculcated sense of conformity to conservative thinking. You're a prime example. You think name calling and mock incredulity mixed with a poor grasp of history (an exclusively Western one) qualifies you as someone to be listened to - wrong. We can read all that tosh in the Telegraph or watch it on Sky.

Paddo you seem to be contradicting yourself with what can and can’t be deemed as name calling.

‘Sheeple’ - clearly not derogatory nor name calling?
‘American war mongering ego maniac’ - as above?? And yet any referencing to Putin as a nationalist, imperialist Tsar wannabe, is met by you with a lecture about sticking to facts and avoiding emotional, evidence free character assassinations?

It’s impossible to have a balanced, reasoned discussion on this subject with you, when your definitions change constantly.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Mmm. Sheeple is derogatory - guilty on that. To "an American war mongering ego maniac" I plead not guilty to emotive language. Truth is my defence. Murdoch is an American citizen and he was a majorly important player in the Iraq invasion and subsequent invasions, including the one on the White House, through his worldwide Fox network. He's a warmonger plain and simple - he sells war. War in turn sells media.

The White House incident itself smacks of megalomania. Here in Oz his publications run at a loss but the rest of the empire subs that. It's the power that that his local media wield that makes them very useful for business, handouts from a grateful government and political personal ends. He tried to force Gough to make him High Commissioner to London and got ignored which led to "Kick this mob out!!! and I bet you did. A stain if ever there was one on that Australian Democracy that makes you quite happy I understand.

I don't think that your assessment of Putin is backed by that same sort of evidence. Please spare me what the msm says about him or anything to do with Russia. Look for some objective and rational assessments instead.

[mightyrooster]

Ok so Murdoch is the ego maniac. On that we agree.
Still, I think it might be time for me to retire myself from this thread.

[Random Rooster]

I don't think that your assessment of Putin is backed by that same sort of evidence. Please spare me what the msm says about him or anything to do with Russia. Look for some objective and rational assessments instead.

Here's a fact.....This week independent Russian news outlets Ekho Moskvy & Dozhd were abruptly shut down by the Kremlin....to go along with TV Rain, the Echo ofMoscow radio station, Meduza, Mediazona, Republic, Sobesednik, and Activatica. We only have pro Kremlin news outlets left!

With the new laws journalism is basically illegal in Russia now- along with the words "war" and " invasion"!! When you add the host of Putins political enemies who met with unfortunate deaths it's starting to look a lot like something out of the Nazi era playbook. Hang on didn't Putin say the Ukraine was full of Nazis? What did Joseph Goebbels say..... "accuse the other side of that which you are guilty"

[Paddo Colt 61]

Who knows what "independent" means in Russia. It was wide open in its powerless period in the 90s and foreign carpetbaggers came from everywhere - McDonalds, KFC, Evangelical missionaries all saw a vast sheeple ripe for exploitation and the business opportunity that represented. Who then owns these "independents" that you name and are their interests the same as the Russians' ? Remember Russia is not a Communist state and, really, it's probably not a lot different to Oz on the authoritarian score. We have draconian "security laws" that target supposed risks to "security" - the men who blew the whistle on the spying on East Timor are a prime example and our disgraceful abandonment of Julian Assange is another. Why even Stan Grant tossed a young man off Q&A for daring to suggest a Russian perspective. Turnbull sacked an SBS sports commentator for reflecting critically on ANZAC fgs.

If there were publications deemed to be a threat to our National Security do you think that they would be allowed to continue operations here? The evidence suggests that they would not be, especially in a time of war.

I am a peacenik. I subscribe relatively generously to UNHCR (the world wide refugee organisation of the UN). War is a dreadful blight on those involved. My sole contention has always been that Russia has a serious case which is ignored by the West and its propaganda prone media. The US is the Elephant in the room and that is clear to anyone who might care to shed the blinkers of media created group think. Too hard for most obviously so people will continue to send their offspring to the future wars which will surely come and which will be American wars which attempt to hold back the currents of history.

[Random Rooster]

Who knows what "independent" means in Russia.

C'mon really? It's incredibly dangerous when country is left with only news sources controlled by the government- you know that. There are 150 journalists that have fled Russia in the last 4 weeks- all from organisations that reported the arresting citizens who dared protesting against the "special military operations" in Ukraine.

Who then owns these "independents" that you name and are their interests the same as the Russians' ?

You suggesting they were all owned by outside sources that are aiming at destabilising the Russian government? Point is none of them are state owned and as such the Kremlin couldn't control what they had to say-but they can and have just eliminated them. Ironically Russian TV Channel 1 have constantly replayed all the pro- Kremlin and Putin rants that Fox News Tucker Carlson went on about for weeks

If there were publications deemed to be a threat to our National Security do you think that they would be allowed to continue operations here? The evidence suggests that they would not be, especially in a time of war.

That scenario has never happened in Australia in times of war- so the evidence suggests it never will

I am a peacenik. I subscribe relatively generously to UNHCR (the world wide refugee organisation of the UN). War is a dreadful blight on those involved. My sole contention has always been that Russia has a serious case which is ignored by the West and its propaganda prone media. The US is the Elephant in the room and that is clear to anyone who might care to shed the blinkers of media created group think. Too hard for most obviously so people will continue to send their offspring to the future wars which will surely come and which will be American wars which attempt to hold back the currents of history.

It's true- the US meddling in foreign affairs has started unnecessary wars and all the disasters that go with it. They are to blame for a lot of the volatility in the middle east that exists today.

However in this case they aren't the ones invading a non threatening country killing innocent citizens and causing a humanitarian disaster. Nor are they jumping in without NATO approval- its actually the European countries driving the response.

So what has all this achieved for Russia? They will "inherit" cities that have been blown to rubble and occupied with people who will attack them any chance they get. Its also accelerated Europes strategies to be less reliant on Russian exports, as well as accelerating their massive funding of their armed forces. Add to that the Russian economy has tanked....who really wins?

[Paddo Colt 61]

All countries crack down on media in wartime. Here in OZ during the First and Second. censorship was draconian - the bombing of Darwin was kept secret. Media had to submit to government censorship. That's just one wartime example.
Ukraine was invaded after well grounded security fears on Russia's part were brushed off or ignored. The expansion of NATO eastward is obvious and should not be airbrushed though it is. Attacks on the Donbass by fascist militias with building destroying weapons supplied by the US sealed the deal. To the Russians, Ukraine is a puppet state and its history since 2014 is one of manipulation by the US.
The US also calls the ultimate shots in Europe though it hasn't managed to undo the European Union. I don't know but I guess the Europeans think that economically any Euro war is a disaster but they're not about to blame Uncle Sam. By the way Europe is "the West", hardly a disinterested player.
Who says that the Russian economy has tanked? US based media that's who , It's whistling in the dark is what it is. Powerless, the US stoops to predictable demonising and ridicule.
There will be a diplomatic solution. War takes over when diplomacy fails. That's its aim according to Clausewitz.

[Mickie Lane]

For those in the know is there any chance Ukraine may be divided into West & East Ukraine?
America gets the west & Russia gets the East?

[Mickie Lane]

All countries crack down on media in wartime. Here in OZ during the First and Second. censorship was draconian - the bombing of Darwin was kept secret. Media had to submit to government censorship. That's just one wartime example.
Ukraine was invaded after well grounded security fears on Russia's part were brushed off or ignored. The expansion of NATO eastward is obvious and should not be airbrushed though it is. Attacks on the Donbass by fascist militias with building destroying weapons supplied by the US sealed the deal. To the Russians, Ukraine is a puppet state and its history since 2014 is one of manipulation by the US.
The US also calls the ultimate shots in Europe though it hasn't managed to undo the European Union. I don't know but I guess the Europeans think that economically any Euro war is a disaster but they're not about to blame Uncle Sam. By the way Europe is "the West", hardly a disinterested player.
Who says that the Russian economy has tanked? US based media that's who , It's whistling in the dark is what it is. Powerless, the US stoops to predictable demonising and ridicule.
There will be a diplomatic solution. War takes over when diplomacy fails. That's its aim according to Clausewitz.

Burger King is still open in Russia.

[Big Dog]

All countries crack down on media in wartime. Here in OZ during the First and Second. censorship was draconian - the bombing of Darwin was kept secret. Media had to submit to government censorship. That's just one wartime example.
Ukraine was invaded after well grounded security fears on Russia's part were brushed off or ignored. The expansion of NATO eastward is obvious and should not be airbrushed though it is. Attacks on the Donbass by fascist militias with building destroying weapons supplied by the US sealed the deal. To the Russians, Ukraine is a puppet state and its history since 2014 is one of manipulation by the US.
The US also calls the ultimate shots in Europe though it hasn't managed to undo the European Union. I don't know but I guess the Europeans think that economically any Euro war is a disaster but they're not about to blame Uncle Sam. By the way Europe is "the West", hardly a disinterested player.
Who says that the Russian economy has tanked? US based media that's who , It's whistling in the dark is what it is. Powerless, the US stoops to predictable demonising and ridicule.
There will be a diplomatic solution. War takes over when diplomacy fails. That's its aim according to Clausewitz.

"The first casualty when war comes is truth". Hiram W Johnson.

[Random Rooster]

For those in the know is there any chance Ukraine may be divided into West & East Ukraine?
America gets the west & Russia gets the East?

and perhaps build a wall? yeah na yeah

[King Salvo]

For those in the know is there any chance Ukraine may be divided into West & East Ukraine?
America gets the west & Russia gets the East?

What is this West and East thing anyway?

I always thought the East was Asia i.e China, Japan, Vietnam, North Korea , South Korea and the Indian subcontinent for an example .The West being Europe as well as the U.K , the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand for an example.

3/4's of Russians live in the European Part of Russia so they are West - Siberia is their Asian Region.

The East–West dichotomy has been criticised for creating an artificial construct of regional unification that allows one voice to claim authority to speak for multitudes.

[Random Rooster]

All countries crack down on media in wartime. Here in OZ during the First and Second. censorship was draconian - the bombing of Darwin was kept secret. Media had to submit to government censorship. That's just one wartime example.

How does this example compare to shutting down all non state owned media outlets? Im sure you have better and more relevant examples?

Ukraine is a puppet state and its history since 2014 is one of manipulation by the US

Ukraine is a independent state that had refused to be played by Putin's puppet Viktor Yanukovych in 2014. He sold out and they kicked him out....all the way back to Moscow

Who says that the Russian economy has tanked? US based media that's who , It's whistling in the dark is what it is. Powerless, the US stoops to predictable demonising and ridicule.

Maybe the Russian Central bank have being watching CNN because they have kept the Russian stock market closed for 3 weeks....all while interest rates have doubled to 20%.....safe to say someone in the Russian government thinks it tanked!

As far as "whistling in the dark" a couple of weeks ago Russia warned of $300 a barrel oil prices if sanctions were put in place against them. Tonight Brent Oil is trading at $115 a barrel- around $25 higher than Russian oil where the demand is way down and they would be scaling back on output sooner rather than later. That's not great news when your economy is basically one big petrol station

Here's what i don't understand. What does winning look like for Putin? Assurances that Ukraine wont join NATO is obviously not enough as Zelensky has been saying he is prepared to negotiate on that. Is he really expecting them to disarm and surrender? He can level out the whole country and leave it totally in pieces but then what? Economically Ukraine is going to be a write off for decades. His threats of using nuclear is going to mean nothing if he moves beyond Ukraine- NATO forces dwarf the Russian military. So what's the end goal?

[King Salvo]

and perhaps build a wall? yeah na yeah

Holidays in the Sun - Sex Pistols

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ah1JM9mf60

Sensurround sound in a two-inch wall
Well I was waiting for the communist call
I dared to ask for sunshine, and I got World War three
I'm looking over the wall and they're looking at me!

Now I got a reason, now I got a reason
Now I got a reason and I'm still waiting
Now I got a reason
Now I got a reason to be waiting
The Berlin Wall