Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Paddo Colt 61]

Off topic but Howard is widely regarded as having been a disastrous treasurer under Fraser. The recession of 1982 was the worst since the Great Depression. The rate of inflation and the unemployment rate, the so called misery index was at its highest under him and you shouldn't forget that the $4B deficit handed to Keating turned out to be $9B.
Fraser in turn was also regarded as a disastrous PM. He was cowed by Howard who threatened to resign when Fraser suggested Keynesian remedies for the recession.

We never heard much about those negatives at the time even though a properly performing democracy requires a well informed electorate.

[mightyrooster]

Just found a video of Paddo from an independent blogger. Enjoy mate... https://youtu.be/0HGgzK2yVX4

I sense a Paddo rebuttal is not too far away…..

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster; I sense a Paddo rebuttal is not too far away.

It might be age but I just don't get the White Monkey thing. I didn't bother to watch, that shouty American commentary is too much.

Not really a rebuttal but with regard to your earlier comment on Navalny, Putin is the President not the Chief Justice and there is no evidence whatsoever to claim that the Russian judicial system is anything other than independent of the Executive. See, you need evidence when you commit to belief in something and Western hyperbole is not evidence. Then again Scomo and millions of others believe in Gods without an atom of evidence.

[ism22]

I sense a Paddo rebuttal is not too far away.

It might be age but I just don't get the White Monkey thing. I didn't bother to watch, that shouty American commentary is too much.

Not really a rebuttal but with regard to your earlier comment on Navalny, Putin is the President not the Chief Justice and there is no evidence whatsoever to claim that the Russian judicial system is anything other than independent of the Executive. See, you need evidence when you commit to belief in something and Western hyperbole is not evidence. Then again Scomo and millions of others believe in Gods without an atom of evidence.

LOLz whooooosh...

Dude the joke is that you sound like one of those white monkeys (i.e. dudes that the CCP pays $$$ to spread anti-western propaganda).

FWIW this dude's lived in China for more than 10 years and speaks fluent Chinese. Apparently his analysis is a little bit above your white monkey cr@p

PS - fix your quotes you mug. I know you're a next level analytical being, having smoked bongs during arts school 5 years ago (a 'long time ago' for some I guess). However, your closed-minded approach to fixing your quotes is the same as your white monkey approach to Chinese/Russian affairs. You're the one standing out like a sore thumb and insisting we're wrong, not you... even when I can get your quote to appear properly by adding [/QUOTE] to the end!!! There's fact resistant and then there's old mate Paddo

[mightyrooster]

Off topic but Howard is widely regarded as having been a disastrous treasurer under Fraser. The recession of 1982 was the worst since the Great Depression. The rate of inflation and the unemployment rate, the so called misery index was at its highest under him and you shouldn't forget that the $4B deficit handed to Keating turned out to be $9B.
Fraser in turn was also regarded as a disastrous PM. He was cowed by Howard who threatened to resign when Fraser suggested Keynesian remedies for the recession.

We never heard much about those negatives at the time even though a properly performing democracy requires a well informed electorate.

Fraser inherited a lot of debt from Gough, along with inflation. Yes Fraser wanted to utilise a fiscal expansionary policy to help bribe the electorate in an attempt to win the 1983 election. Howard was opposed to that and was in favour of deregulation and fiscal constraint, but he couldn’t convince Fraser and his supporters. The result was stagflation and a massive budget deficit. Also Fraser was actually fairly progressive when it came to sociopolitical issues from what I remember.

I guess the program I saw on Four Corners which featured Russians telling their stories of being imprisoned and tortured for protesting against Putin must have been bribed by the Western media.

[mightyrooster]

LOLz whooooosh...

Dude the joke is that you sound like one of those white monkeys (i.e. dudes that the CCP pays $$$ to spread anti-western propaganda).

FWIW this dude's lived in China for more than 10 years and speaks fluent Chinese. Apparently his analysis is a little bit above your white monkey cr@p

PS - fix your quotes you mug. I know you're a next level analytical being, having smoked bongs during arts school 5 years ago (a 'long time ago' for some I guess). However, your closed-minded approach to fixing your quotes is the same as your white monkey approach to Chinese/Russian affairs. You're the one standing out like a sore thumb and insisting we're wrong, not you... even when I can get your quote to appear properly by adding

Paddo may surprise us one day and actually use the quote function correctly. For someone who pays such attention to detail when critiquing our comments, it baffles me how he still can’t work that one out. And gee I’m glad I never had Paddo as my history teacher. I reckon I’d struggle to get a C, and have absolutely no hope of ever achieving an A.

[Rooster1908]

to the end!!! There's fact resistant and then there's old mate Paddo

Paddo may surprise us one day and actually use the quote function correctly. For someone who pays such attention to detail when critiquing our comments, it baffles me how he still can’t work that one out. And gee I’m glad I never had Paddo as my history teacher. I reckon I’d struggle to get a C, and have absolutely no hope of ever achieving an A. [/QUOTE]

Think Pado is a case of monkey see monkey do

[Random Rooster]

Sorry Ism but your point escapes me. News flash, China is Capitalist but Capitalists don't run the show as they do in the West.

My views are shared by many people Random. I acquire them from the most objective and reasonable sources that I can find. University taught me to think critically many years ago and it also taught me to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Needless to say my sources do/did not include the MSM. Groupthink is not truth. Emotion whipped up by a media that never explains anything is no encouragement to rational thought.

To be fair, even if there was a transformation and our MSM fairly and fully explained the ramifications of the full range of policies in the coming election, the sheeple would /could not be induced to read, understand and think. The great majority would still be influenced by whether a candidate has crooked teeth, is too pretty or the laughable "trust" factor - "Don't like the look of him/her" - the majority (85%) don't know or want to know. A democracy of ignorance that congratulates itself on some imaginary ideal of political participation. If the average Aussie knew the name of the PM it's a safe bet that they could not name any other member of the government nor would they have the remotest idea of our structure of government. Am I talking about you Random?

Well then i better start checking out some of the news sources you recommended in an earlier post.....after all university taught you all about critical thinking!


https://theconversation.com/could-vl...nvasion-179182

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/03/11...-lost-the-war/

[Paddo Colt 61]

I just don't get this obsession with the quote function. Perhaps it's the old right wing diversion tactic like "Hey look at Albo he's got new suits and new spectacles!".

There is a diversity of views in the media that I consume. Quite unlike the MSM which creates and then panders to knuckleheads. I saw the general wish to be well informed in my time as an educator.

Before 2014, in its ongoing attempt to subvert the democratically elected government of Ukraine, the Neo Con US concentrated its propaganda campaign on youth (well they would wouldn't they - a largely air head demographic in any generation). A "protest" TV station was financed, there was infiltration and mobilisation of social media - the old modern kitchen mirage or fashion or pop music or the endless attraction of wants that we see in Western societies. All of that effort to topple a legal Government was for their own good? A country which is the poorest in Europe? In the light of all that, I wouldn't be too quick to to regard White Monkeys as bing credible.

Conceding nothing and merely indulging in attempts at ridicule of opposing views is a well worn MSM approach. Might make you feel good but gets you no points except, I concede, with the knuckleheads.

MR gives a blatant political nod to Johnny Howard and when that is demolished she shifts the goal posts blaming Fraser for Howard's fiscal shortcomings. In a response which appeared to be more concerned with her "Economist" credentials she appeared to suggest that in times of recession, a Keynesian approach is a bad thing and that Howard's tough medicine was what was really the thing that was needed. Fraser was too soft eh? Too left wing? An Australian patrician who conspired in the sacking of a democratically elected government? Of course even Fraser came to see the US as being a big problem which did him no credit in our power elite circles.

[mightyrooster]

I just don't get this obsession with the quote function. Perhaps it's the old right wing diversion tactic like "Hey look at Albo he's got new suits and new spectacles!".

There is a diversity of views in the media that I consume. Quite unlike the MSM which creates and then panders to knuckleheads. I saw the general wish to be well informed in my time as an educator.

Before 2014, in its ongoing attempt to subvert the democratically elected government of Ukraine, the Neo Con US concentrated its propaganda campaign on youth (well they would wouldn't they - a largely air head demographic in any generation). A "protest" TV station was financed, there was infiltration and mobilisation of social media - the old modern kitchen mirage or fashion or pop music or the endless attraction of wants that we see in Western societies. All of that effort to topple a legal Government was for their own good? A country which is the poorest in Europe? In the light of all that, I wouldn't be too quick to to regard White Monkeys as bing credible.

Conceding nothing and merely indulging in attempts at ridicule of opposing views is a well worn MSM approach. Might make you feel good but gets you no points except, I concede, with the knuckleheads.

MR gives a blatant political nod to Johnny Howard and when that is demolished she shifts the goal posts blaming Fraser for Howard's fiscal shortcomings. In a response which appeared to be more concerned with her "Economist" credentials she appeared to suggest that in times of recession, a Keynesian approach is a bad thing and that Howard's tough medicine was what was really the thing that was needed. Fraser was too soft eh? Too left wing? An Australian patrician who conspired in the sacking of a democratically elected government? Of course even Fraser came to see the US as being a big problem which did him no credit in our power elite circles.

Lol you are funny Paddo.

The obsession with the quote thing is because it is really quite annoying from a practical sense when you see paragraphs of a previous poster's response not quoted properly and therefore it is tucked onto the beginning of the responder's post incorrectly. It's just very messy and makes it hard to follow the proper flow of the discusion and work out who's post belongs to whom. I have tried to help you use this function before and I generally just roll with it now. So

Which brings me to my second point. I got onto Howard because you claimed in one of your previous posts that:

'Elections here are rigged in the sense that the private mass media barracks for one side only and distorts and lies about the disfavoured side's policies'. and '
When a progressive party is elected a media cacophony immediately starts up and ends with a "kick this mob out". Issues are beat up - pink batts, school halls, scandals like the Julia Gillard boyfriend corruption invention. Just take note when or if the Libs lose in May'.

I simply tried to point out that media bias runs BOTH ways. Which is why I also quite clearly pointed out, which you have ignored, examples of the conservative media bagging out the ALP - I even went into a discussion on the last Federal election and how Shorten actually had policies. In fact I agreed with you on your point but wanted to add some balance and show how it can also work on the other side of politics too.

You think I'm a fan of John Howard? You think I gave him a blatant political nod? That's pretty funny. Did you read my comments about using terrorism and boat people as a means to scare the masses?

You mentioned Fraser's debt. I mentioned Whitlam wasn't too great himself at managing debt. I actually think Gough did a lot of wonderful things for this country. I liked him a lot. But he had no idea about economics. I was pointing out how Howard wanted to go against the current trend at the time of Keynesian economics but Fraser was opposed. It was a statement of fact - no political connotations whatsover on my part. In fact economic management could benefit from a lot less political interference. I think from an economic point of view Fraser was wrong and Howard was correct on that issue. It doesn't mean I'm a massive Howard fan.

You question my Economics degree? The one I earnt from ANU along with the other part of my double degree in Asian Studies? That's a low blow Paddo.

[mightyrooster]

I also forgot to address your last sentence. Fraser too soft and too left wing? You really are trolling now. You have a dig at Fraser for being one of the worst PM's ever and then you're suddenly defending him against my alleged attack of his left wing credentials? So did he contribute to the massive debt you allude to because he ignored treasuray advice?

For the record, as a statement of fact, I thought Fraser was a more progressive Liberal, along the lines of Turnbull. Complete opposite to Abbott, Dutton and co. I do not think he was soft because of that fact. But he did contribute to the massive debt which Hawke inherited, by going against Treasury advice at the time. In my humble opinion.

[Paddo Colt 61]

It's funny how things unintended can be read into a post. I am now aware that my reference to a university education may have implied that without one a point of view is is invalid and that interpretation might have rightly offended people. I was lucky to have had one, my parents could never have afforded to finance me.

After the war, a Tory government won the 1949 election on the promise of ending wartime rationing thereby encouraging inflation which led to the disastrous 1960 credit squeeze. Menzies was a cunning opportunistic do nothing ("asleep at the wheel" as Keating famously said) but fortunately he was smart enough to keep in place Labor's post war recovery plan that "Nugget" Coombs had devised when we had an effective Public Service. That plan included a scholarship program which provided a free university education based on high school exam performance and I was a fortunate beneficiary. University saved me in many ways but I don't discount the opinions of intelligent people everywhere who were not so fortunate as to be able to extend their formal education.

Getting back to misinterpretation though. I admit to some sarcasm MR but it appeared that you were trying to rescue Howard's reputation as a Treasurer/money manager when you must be aware of the IMF's (of all things) criticism of his government as the most profligate in Oz history (twice). In the last post you still appeared to be at it. I never questioned your Economics degree but I do question that MSM conventional wisdom like Whitlam "had no idea of Economics" - that has become a destructive cliche and it doesn't bear analysis. No other country came out of the 70s Petro inflation well. Thatcher had a 23% interest rate - a couple of points higher than Whitlams. Nevertheless, Whitlam faced 3 elections in 3 years the last one after a coup led by the Australian establishment.

Fraser went against the Treasury advice of John Stone, a Neo Con before the term was widely known, who later stood as a right wing candidate with quite extreme economic views. You appear to suggest that Treasury advice under him was/is pretty much sacrosanct.

"From an economic point of view Howard was right"? How far should a society defer to business or be dependent on business? The Soviet Union never had a Great Depression. The 1930s New Deal which eventually saved Capitalism in the US was resisted tooth and nail by "Conservatives" and still is. Nations are not households (though Tories love the analogy because it is easily understood by the 85% knucklehead demographic). Australia is enormously rich with almost endless government assets. The Sovereign Risk bullshit is just that. There are times, and there may be many of them in the future, when government debt is desirable for the welfare of PEOPLE.

[Random Rooster]

Look Paddo another interesting article on one of the independent news sources you recommended

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/03/28...aines-borders/

[mightyrooster]

Well the only thing I have to add is I too benefited from a free university education courtesy of Whitlam, of which I too am very thankful, because my parents also would not have been able to afford it.

As this thread is supposed to be about the real story in Ukraine, I will allow this thread to get back on track. Hmm, well however flimsy that 'on track' ever was.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Mighty Rooster; Look Paddo another interesting article on one of the independent news sources you recommended,,,,,,

Yeah, we've already been through this Mighty Mouse. The media that I consume includes diverse opinion. Main Street media does not. One reads articles critically, you should try it.

Anyway it's time for celebration. My grandson debuts for Paddington Colts u/16 v Mascot Jets next weekend. He lives in Vaucluse and attends Cranbrook - up the Working Class!!!!