Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[4 the all in brawl]

My take on it is RR is whipping PC61' and tearing him a new one, despite PC's best mate or alter ego A Country Rooster trying to suggest otherwise....

The debate on Russian Propaganda on the Ukraine War has had the goalposts moved into a China Belt and road initiative for a bit of deflection.....

BTW I am not a right leaning Skynews viewing, Telegaffe reader (I haven't watched or read anything from Sky, or read a Murdoch rag except for the odd sport article for a long long time) Paddo, some of the political stoushes you have especially the domestic ones with JFC, I actually think you make more sense than him........

[mightyrooster]

Doesn't matter how many you have mon ami, you keep on repeating that emotional stuff. I don't blame you, class, years of of conditioning - Russia bad, China bad, Venezuela, Cuba bad. The Western Media doesn't help. I hate the thought of the chaos and grief of war but worse is the knowledge that war sells big time and how do you maximise that? By appealing to emotions. Creating cheer squads that rev up hatred of the other side.

The ABC is a worry. I think that we've a new era there unless a new government rectifies things. The impartial analysis of most things is pretty much gone and News and current affairs seems to take the same foreign feeds as the commercials. Cuts to budget are at the root of it and job loss has really put the frighteners on the organisation. Presumably to curry favour and broaden the audience there's been a sizeable recruitment from the private sector all of whom have been disappointing. That execrable bloviator Stan Grant whose interview schstic is to give a mini lecture and then ask the glassy eyed interviewee if they agree. Patricia Karvelis is another ex News Corp lightweight, on RN Breakfast fcs. Girlish and banal she's the epitome of a group thinker completely out of her depth. That's what you get when you hire Year 10 leaver journos "trained on the job" at News. I just hope that they haven't hired editors.

I had an HSC History student (Have I mentioned I was a teacher?) years ago. A blokey kid, loudmouthed in class and unreasonably confident. Horrified that he had received 6/20 for an essay, he discounted my advice regarding his poor writing and even poorer grasp of the topic, saying "I'm gonna be a journalist Mum's got me a job at the Tele". And so he did, got by lines about big car crashes, became a Channel 9 nightly news contributor, flew the world on assignment. Still couldn't cut it - that's the kinda guy whose reporting you'd believe?

Was the essay about The Russian or Chinese Revolutions or the evil influence of the US and the West on the sheeple? If so I’m actually surprised you gave him 30%. He did well.

[ism22]

I had an HSC History student (Have I mentioned I was a teacher?) years ago. A blokey kid, loudmouthed in class and unreasonably confident. Horrified that he had received 6/20 for an essay, he discounted my advice regarding his poor writing and even poorer grasp of the topic, saying "I'm gonna be a journalist Mum's got me a job at the Tele". And so he did, got by lines about big car crashes, became a Channel 9 nightly news contributor, flew the world on assignment.

So basically a dude who you gave 6/20 for an assignment has done better than you in life? Cool. What do they say again? Those who can't do are the ones who...

Anyhow back to Russia bombing the shyte outta Ukraine. It's sorta violent and unnecessary, ay?

[mightyrooster]

My take on it is RR is whipping PC61' and tearing him a new one, despite PC's best mate or alter ego A Country Rooster trying to suggest otherwise....

The debate on Russian Propaganda on the Ukraine War has had the goalposts moved into a China Belt and road initiative for a bit of deflection.....

BTW I am not a right leaning Skynews viewing, Telegaffe reader (I haven't watched or read anything from Sky, or read a Murdoch rag except for the odd sport article for a long long time) Paddo, some of the political stoushes you have especially the domestic ones with JFC, I actually think you make more sense than him........

I think it’s very cute the way Paddo and A Country Member support and back each other up. They seem to have so much in common.

[Paddo Colt 61]

I've never met the Member though I do like the moniker (the old joke is so true) and he's knowledgeable on the game. Have look at his footy posts. I'd give some 9/10.

Ism, I'd say you're right. I haven't seen him on TV lately, probably retired to his estate with his Murdoch millions - c'mon he wasn't Brian Henderson! And I didn't realise that you were a teacher basher.

Ah..MR. I can't remember the essay topic but it was early in the school year and I used to begin the course with The Industrial Revolution, Marx had quite a bit to say about that. (Joke!!!)

[A Country Member]

I’m just a Country Member

[A Country Member]

I caught up with my Ukrainian friend yesterday and asked him what he thought of the current troubles in his home country. He is very sad and distressed as his mother and brother are still there in Odessa. He said the Russians haven’t arrived but are close.

He is disappointed that Zelensky didn’t heed the warnings and rethink about joining NATO under US coercion and as a result ruined the country. Also the dominos that have been falling for 30 years since the Berlin Wall fell. He can understand why the Russians acted since their requests were ignored over the years and diplomacy has failed.

He told me of nationalistic fascists scaring the local population with fear and intimidation and issuing death threats if you don’t comply.

He said what is being presented here in the media is not a fair indication of is really happening both before and since the invasion.

He was surprised that I knew so much of the situation. And to that I can thank PC61 for enlightening me and hopefully some of you.

[Random Rooster]

I caught up with my Ukrainian friend yesterday and asked him what he thought of the current troubles in his home country. He is very sad and distressed as his mother and brother are still there in Odessa. He said the Russians haven’t arrived but are close.

He is disappointed that Zelensky didn’t heed the warnings and rethink about joining NATO under US coercion and as a result ruined the country. Also the dominos that have been falling for 30 years since the Berlin Wall fell. He can understand why the Russians acted since their requests were ignored over the years and diplomacy has failed.

He told me of nationalistic fascists scaring the local population with fear and intimidation and issuing death threats if you don’t comply.

He said what is being presented here in the media is not a fair indication of is really happening both before and since the invasion.

He was surprised that I knew so much of the situation. And to that I can thank PC61 for enlightening me and hopefully some of you.

April Fools! LOL

[Random Rooster]

The present brutal reality is that NATO played hardball in Kosovo when Russia was weak and won in the short term but is now paying the price. If you wanna get an update on that, take a minute to go to johnmenadue.com and see ex ADF officer Cameron Leckie's piece "The Ukraine - a Decisive transfer of the balance of Power from West to East".

If you can't lift the quality of comment with references to authority other than your own and the MSM's, please don't bother responding and the Uni/teacher smear (you know what you're doing) is getting tired.

Ok i read the article -3 times and these are my thoughts. Im sure this will bore the shit out of most so i don't recommend reading it unless you're Paddo Colt 61 or suffer from insomnia

The preponderance of human-interest reporting of the conflict in lieu of coverage of the war itself is illustrative. The heartbreaking examples of families torn asunder along with the brave exploits of Ukrainian soldiers or allegations of war crimes by Russia, whilst important, tends to trigger an emotional response rather than provide an accurate depiction of the course of events.
Partly this is because very few mainstream Western reporters, if any, appear to be located where the bulk of the fighting is, namely in the Donbass and around Mariupol. The resulting vacuum is filled by claims, many unverified and unverifiable, from the Ukrainian side, the aforementioned human-interest stories or the impact of missile strikes in and around the major cities. Truth has long been described as the first casualty of war. It would be unwise to think that this conflict is an exception. We should thus take a healthy dose of scepticism about the media reporting and analysis of the war – from all sides.

Well yes its true there are very few mainstream reporters in Mariupol or Donbass. In fact there is hardly any reporting from these areas. The simple answer is these cities were not deemed to be safe to report from as Russia would be taking out civilian targets. As it turns out the intelligence was right and Mariupol has been indiscriminately flattened. I guess the satellite before and after photos could be fake or the 200,000 plus displaced and fleeing from Mariupol are just Ukrainian actors. Maybe Russian TV showing some of the devastation with Russian soldiers claiming the all bombing was done by Ukrainians themselves for propaganda purposes could actually be true. I guess it's up to the individual to use some critical thinking

A narrative that seems to be gaining traction is that the Russian forces have culminated and Ukraine may actually be winning. This narrative could well be wishful thinking, influenced by the desire for Russia to lose, the overwhelming pro-Ukrainian bias of reporting and analysis and a misunderstanding of Russia’s aims and strategy.

Bullshit. I may be wrong about everything i think about this conflict but i know one thing for sure- no one wins.

The Russian military is running an ‘economy of effort’ operation. It has effectively fixed in place the garrisons defending Ukraine’s major cities leaving them incapable of supporting the troops in the Donbass. Meanwhile Russia is progressively destroying the military infrastructure of the Ukraine (resupply, maintenance and command and control facilities and weapon systems such as Air Defence, artillery and armoured vehicles) through a combination of air strikes, cruise missiles, rockets and traditional artillery across the breadth and depth of Ukraine. Approximately 60,000 of Ukraine’s best trained and equipped troops are located in the Donbass. It would appear unlikely that this force is capable of anything other than localised tactical level manoeuvre at this point due to a combination of ever dwindling supplies of ammunition, fuel and rations, Russia’s dominance in the air and ground based combat power, and the effects of combat to date.

So the end game is just to capture Donbass and the tactic is to tie up the Ukrainian military by forcing them to defend capital cities? Im pretty sure Putin had a lot more planned, like flexing Russias military power and conquering all of Ukraine. Maybe the goalposts have changed?

The Western response to Russia’s invasion has been to substantially increase its military aid to Ukraine (which is unlikely to change the outcome of the war) and implement economic (and cultural) sanctions of an unprecedented scale and nature on Russia.
This approach is unlikely to work for multiple reasons, the primary one being as I stated in my last article that there ‘are no sanctions that the US or Europe can implement that will not have a greater impact upon those countries than Russia or create further divisions among the Western powers.’Whilst the sanctions will have a disruptive and negative effect on the Russian economy, they will not be devastating for the simple fact that Russia is too important to the global economy. The initial shock of the sanctions did not cause a collapse of the Russian financial system, nor did it result did not result in a bank run. The Ruble has already regained some of its value versus the US dollar and Russia has (for now) made bond repayments.

It's true the Ruble has bounced back. How?

Interest rates have been doubled to 20% by the central bank. Local currency is therefore more attractive to Russian savers.
Instead of holding on to US dollars or euros, exporters have been ordered to switch 80% of their foreign currency revenues for rubles.
Brokers in Russia have been prohibited from selling securities held by foreigners.
Bank transfers outside of Russia are not permitted by Russian residents.
Russia has threatened to demand payment for natural gas in rubles, not euros or dollars.

Moscow has been able to artificially manufacture demand for the ruble with these measures. With the Russian economy in ruins, nobody wants to buy the currency on their own accord, so policymakers face a dilemma. Ruble demand will drop once the restrictions are lifted, and its value will slide

For the Russian stock market, the same is true. The MOEX index trended higher last week after trading resumed after a long suspension caused by the war, but analysts say this is due to restrictions on investors, such as a ban on shorting stocks. The market reopened with only 33 stocks trading. The index fell again when all stocks were traded this week.

Russia is far from being isolated. Whilst a majority of countries voted against Russia at the United Nations General Assembly, of more importance is the countries that are not sanctioning Russia. Outside of the West virtually no country is sanctioning Russia, including the world’s two most populous, China and India with the world’s second and sixth largest economies.

The author should have laid out the top 10 largest world economies for a more balanced view rather than cherry picking numbers 2 and 6

1. United States: $20.89 trillion
2. China: $14.72 trillion
3. Japan: $5.06 trillion
4. Germany: $3.85 trillion
5. United Kingdom: $2.67 trillion
6. India: $2.66 trillion
7. France: $2.63 trillion
8. Italy: $1.89 trillion
9. Canada: $1.64 trillion
10. South Korea: $1.63 trillion

Doesn't look as appealing now!


The impact of Western businesses withdrawing from Russia, whilst causing short to medium term disruptions, will in the longer term be managed through an expansion of Russia’s import substitution policies and sourcing goods from other countries. There are already reports that the sale of Chinese mobile phones in Russia have more than doubled whilst the Chinese financial company UnionPay is replacing VISA and Mastercard. The effect of the sanctions policy may very well be the permanent gifting of a market of 140 million people to Chinese and Indian businesses.

I wonder where these "reports" have come from? I guess it's good news for Huawei who now have a new market for their rubbish phones!



Prior to the war commencing many countries, including the United States and in Europe, were facing an inflationary crisis, largely driven by the surging costs of energy. That situation is now much worse. Europe is already suffering energy shortages. Attempts to replace Russian energy will be time consuming and difficult.

This is true. This is going to be felt by the entire world but the Europeans particularly

The Serbian President describes the situation as follows:
‘We cannot just destroy ourselves. If we impose sanctions on Russia in the oil and gas domain, we will destroy ourselves. It’s like shooting yourself in the foot before rushing into a fight.’

Asking the Serbian President what he thinks about Russia is akin to asking Mussolini to give a character reference for Hitler

The net effect of the sanctions policy for Europe in particular is likely to be structurally higher prices for raw materials (energy, base minerals, fertilisers etc) and precarious supply chains for the foreseeable future. Standards of living will drop and the nascent cost of living protests that are emerging across Europe will likely turn into major domestic political crises.

There is some truth in this- the pain of sanctions are going to be felt everywhere. However the political fallout for European countries that would have not implemented sanctions would have been far greater

It seems clear that the Western powers have overestimated the impact that the sanctions would have on Russia, had not fully thought through the implications, were unprepared for the consequences and have no feasible way of reversing their actions. Meanwhile the majority of the world’s countries will continue to trade and maintain their relationship with Russia for the simple reason that it is in their interests to do so.

I'm pretty sure the EU and US would have been aware that Russia's allies would still trade with them.. "It seems clear that the Western powers have overestimated...." It may be clear to the author but the reasoning leading to this conclusion is based speculation


You would have to wonder if Russia had so much economic clout why didn't Putin wield that power to be heard? I'm not denying the hostile history of Ukraine and Russia. You can point the finger in many directions but the answer isn't indiscriminately dropping bombs and starting a war. Putin may think the lives of Russian soldiers are just a number that are sacrificial in order to have his wants met- but these are someones husbands, wives, children, grandchildren. As i said i protested against the USA invading Iraq and i feel the same in this conflict- no one wins and no one comes out of it all in a stronger position

[Paddo Colt 61]

I admire and thank you for the trouble you've gone to. Layout wise and for effective communication I'd give it a high mark but I didn't intend you do more than toss around a few of the points.

Trouble is your counters are unconvincing. Of the points with which you disagree, let's take the Serbian President's remarks which you suggested were cynical but Serbia is not Communist anymore nor is Russia. In fact Serbia was non aligned for years. The Eastern Bloc is gone.

I saw a deep commitment to ideology in that sneer. I took your position to be that the ultimate responsibility and blame for the war is less important than who invaded and you held that position on humanitarian grounds. If it were genuine, that is a laudable, if naive, conviction but the sneer suggests that it's more than that. You're masquerading,

The former ADF Officer who wrote the piece put down some telling facts like 90% of the invasion force was intact and then he outlined a credible assessment of the strategic position which you wouldn't see on MSM and which, to a civilian, is a very clever strategy - contain any assistance from key cities while you consolidate the Eastern areas and clean out the Nazis.

His seculations too are more than possible and have huge ramifications in the short and long term. Instead most of us see a plucky little David, one stone away from victory. Not gonna happen. The US and NATO may have scored an own goal here to add to the Global powershift. Ultimately we're all in for it.

[A Country Member]

April Fools! LOL

Quality contribution RR. True story though

[Random Rooster]

Trouble is your counters are unconvincing. Of the points with which you disagree, let's take the Serbian President's remarks which you suggested were cynical but Serbia is not Communist anymore nor is Russia. In fact Serbia was non aligned for years. The Eastern Bloc is gone.

I saw a deep commitment to ideology in that sneer. I took your position to be that the ultimate responsibility and blame for the war is less important than who invaded and you held that position on humanitarian grounds. If it were genuine, that is a laudable, if naive, conviction but the sneer suggests that it's more than that. You're masquerading,

Maybe unconvincing to you and that other chap who bobs along every now and then, but that's ok, sometimes you need to agree to disagree.

You well and truly have read way too much in my Serbia comment. The Serbia/Russia alliance goes back centuries and lately Serbia has aligned itself with China. Serbia also has a very strong reliance to Russian gas. For the author to cherry pick what the Serbian President has to say would carry as much weight as if i quoted the thoughts of every leader of the EU that is in NATO. You would pull me up and say "of course they would say that......" and that would be a fair comment. This "masquerading" business....you're giving me way too much credit.

the former ADF Officer who wrote the piece put down some telling facts like 90% of the invasion force was intact and then he outlined a credible assessment of the strategic position which you wouldn't see on MSM and which, to a civilian, is a very clever strategy - contain any assistance from key cities while you consolidate the Eastern areas and clean out the Nazis.

The "look over there and not over here"strategy isn't rocket science. Is killing thousands of civilians, tens of thousands of soldiers and displacing millions the price you have to pay to eliminate these so called Nazis? Let me know when they find these Nazi's and ill let you know when the US finds those weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

His seculations too are more than possible and have huge ramifications in the short and long term. Instead most of us see a plucky little David, one stone away from victory. Not gonna happen. The US and NATO may have scored an own goal here to add to the Global powershift. Ultimately we're all in for it

Well i dissected his article and gave specific reasons i believe he was either wrong of or the mark with. You obviously don't agree with any of my views- so be it. Lets see what unfolds in the coming weeks and months

[Random Rooster]

Quality contribution RR. True story though

It got the response it deserved

[mightyrooster]

Gee, awesome effort RR. But I’m beginning to think we are now being taken for a ride.

[mightyrooster]

I caught up with my Ukrainian friend yesterday and asked him what he thought of the current troubles in his home country. He is very sad and distressed as his mother and brother are still there in Odessa. He said the Russians haven’t arrived but are close.

He is disappointed that Zelensky didn’t heed the warnings and rethink about joining NATO under US coercion and as a result ruined the country. Also the dominos that have been falling for 30 years since the Berlin Wall fell. He can understand why the Russians acted since their requests were ignored over the years and diplomacy has failed.

He told me of nationalistic fascists scaring the local population with fear and intimidation and issuing death threats if you don’t comply.

He said what is being presented here in the media is not a fair indication of is really happening both before and since the invasion.

He was surprised that I knew so much of the situation. And to that I can thank PC61 for enlightening me and hopefully some of you.

Spoken by A Country Member
Authorised by Paddo Colt 61
On behalf of the Russian……