Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Random Rooster]

Only an ignorant fool could keep believing that the US is the White Knight protecting the world from "evil". Unforch the Sheeple are characterised by ignorant fools.

No one has been glorifying the USA- that's you making your own propaganda!

It's the same story as the aggressive attitude to Russia - ring them with missiles and then point the blame at any reaction they might take.

Ring Russia with missiles?? Who has the balance of power in this sector?? Russia’s total nuclear warhead inventory comes to 5,977 – with 4,477 in its stockpile of reserves .The US holds 5,428 nuclear warheads, with a military stockpile of 3,708. China has the third highest amount of nuclear weapons 350 in total, with France following close behind with 290 and the UK 225. Do you really think Russia had genuine concerns that it may be targeted by the European countries? What for anyway, they provide cheap gas to Europe!


OK so heres my USA bash up- short and simplified. At the fall of the USSR, Ukraine "inherited" the 3rd largest stockpile of nuclear weapons (all left behind by Russia). At the urgings of the west, particularly the US who could be easily attacked by these nuclear weapons, Ukraine dismantled all the small nuclear weapons and returned the large nuclear weapons back to Russia. In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.

So by thinking about their own security self interests, the USA had left Ukraine exposed to Russia's military might. Fair to assume if Ukraine held on to its nuclear warheads we wouldn't be talking of any Russian invasion today.

So what happened to the 1994 Budapest Memorandum? The Kremlin sidestepped those commitments by using soldiers in Russian combat fatigues without identifying insignia, whom Putin later admitted were Russian, to seize Crimea. Russia subsequently encouraged and armed separatists in eastern Ukraine. When the Ukrainian military appeared to gain the upper hand against the separatists, regular Russian army units entered Donetsk and Luhansk to support them.

What part of its commitments to “respect the independence” and “refrain from the threat or use of force” did Putin not understand? He's a cunning fella ....as was Hitler


Paddo- i'm not a believer in taking east vs west sides (unless its my beloved Roosters!).....and you keep bring up China

I was highly critical of Duttons rubbish tough talk against China (probably at the urgings of Mike Pomepo- probably at the urgings of Trump). China replied with banning/restricting wine,beef and barley imports from Australia- and nice little reminder about biting the hand that feeds you.....and where did the Chinese source the barley from instead of us?? Frikkin USA- and the yanks had the nerve to do the deal. Wow what a statement from Xi- it's no coincidence they chose the US to get the barley contract that we lost - how easily the US sold us out.

Meanwhile stupid Birmingham is going on about China breaking international trade laws.....while Morrison is trying to open the borders to let in international uni students-of which 40% are from China! Go figure?

[A Country Member]

As noted, there was no diplomacy. Russia simply said 'install a puppet government that's pro-Russia or we'll destroy you until you give in!!!' They're now blowing everything up because Ukraine has refused to give in.

It's a farce that you suggest there was an opportunity for people to discuss this in a civil manner (or that there's issues that needed sorting out from Ukraine's end).

---

PS - didn't you know the 'leaked' version of Manning's 'collateral damage' video was heavily edited to exclude the context (soldiers were copping heavy fire from terrorists and some journos walked right into the middle of them without wearing their media uniforms... unfortunate but it's kinda what you get when you dress up as a terrorist in an attempt to get better footage of action)? Just assumed you'd know, being the 'analytical' one and all.

Meanwhile, Russia's 'collateral damage' is in the thousands (tens of thousands?) and they've only been there for a month. I note you don't give a cr@p about any of that.

To use your own vernacular. Lolzzz

What is funny is how you peddle this tripe but won’t use words like cr@p and shyte when you could use crap and shit. Lol

[ism22]

To use your own vernacular. Lolzzz

What is funny is how you peddle this tripe but won’t use words like cr@p and shyte when you could use crap and shit. Lol

Cool, the 'Pen lets me swear now.

I'll remember for next time I'm debunking your bullshit.

[A Country Member]

Cool, the 'Pen lets me swear now.

I'll remember for next time I'm debunking your bullshit.

There you go. That’s what I do with yours, it’s easy

[mightyrooster]

The Chinese government has 4 foreign bases (one off the coast of Africa has probably closed by now) and none are extensive military installations in the way that US bases are. By contrast, the US has 800 bases worldwide some of them huge like Diego Garcia which focuses on China. It's the same story as the aggressive attitude to Russia - ring them with missiles and then point the blame at any reaction they might take. Only an ignorant fool could keep believing that the US is the White Knight protecting the world from "evil". Unforch the Sheeple are characterised by ignorant fools.

Like Russia, China is the object of misinformation and propaganda. Both are seen as competitors who need to be put back in their place - subservient to Uncle Sam.

Only an ignorant fool would keep persisting with the argument that if you're anti-Russian invasion of Ukraine you must also automatically be pro-US. One can be anti Russia and anti-US at the same time. I and others have made this point more than enough times now.

[zac]

a ukrainian woman welcoming her liberators

[Paddo Colt 61]

Okay, but let's let ultimate responsibility lie where it's due. The US is doing the same snow job on "us" in respect of China - manufacturing "threat" when there is none. What might that mean for our future?

[A Country Member]

Okay, but let's let ultimate responsibility lie where it's due. The US is doing the same snow job on "us" in respect of China - manufacturing "threat" when there is none. What might that mean for our future?

The timing of this China threat with the coming Aus election will only grow louder.

[Random Rooster]

Okay, but let's let ultimate responsibility lie where it's due. The US is doing the same snow job on "us" in respect of China - manufacturing "threat" when there is none. What might that mean for our future?

Unless you exclusively listen to 2GB or watch Sky News Australia then you can see through it.

Anyone who doubts the importance of China to the Australian economy....https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/aust...ods-china-2020

Idiots like Dutton who start fights with China where there is none should be rubbed out of our politics. If any politician really ignorant enough to hate China, then instead of throwing insults there way work on increasing our exports to them even further and gain satisfaction that your doing something to help Australia.

Also if you haven't tried the food from Rose Bay Chinese i suggest you do! It's pricey but its unreal

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster; Only an ignorant fool would keep persisting with the argument that if you're anti-Russian invasion of Ukraine you must also automatically be pro-US. One can be anti Russia and anti-US at the same time. I and others have made this point more than enough times now.

Do you think that you may have been thoroughly conditioned re Putin's Russia and, possibly, the Russia of the past? You did imply a quite negative perspective on its revolution when commenting earlier on my ex pupil's history result. I'd image he'd now be about your age and back then, at a young age, he was well and truly sold on the Russia evil thing. It's hard to let go of. I bet that he hates Putin and the pity is that he has an audience.

It is possible to view Putin in a different light. I don't think that he wants to be a new Tsar, there is zero evidence for that, but everything that he's done and said speaks to his patriotism and his belief that he is the best one suited to the job. From the get go (early 90s) he has wanted closer and and friendlier relations with the US but has been rebuffed at every turn. At the time he was confronting a Islamic fundamentalist threat in Chechnya he suggested a return to the WW2 wartime alliance with regard to the War on Terror. He told Bush about intel on a plot brewing in Afghanistan but he was ignored as usual. When 9/11 happened he wrote that he felt responsible. You need to read more about him, there are plenty of articles from reliable publications on the net. The frothing doesn't become you.

[mightyrooster]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n924278][QUOTE=mightyrooster; Only an ignorant fool would keep persisting with the argument that if you're anti-Russian invasion of Ukraine you must also automatically be pro-US. One can be anti Russia and anti-US at the same time. I and others have made this point more than enough times now.

Do you think that you may have been thoroughly conditioned re Putin's Russia and, possibly, the Russia of the past? You did imply a quite negative perspective on its revolution when commenting earlier on my ex pupil's history result. I'd image he'd now be about your age and back then, at a young age, he was well and truly sold on the Russia evil thing. It's hard to let go of. I bet that he hates Putin and the pity is that he has an audience.

It is possible to view Putin in a different light. I don't think that he wants to be a new Tsar, there is zero evidence for that, but everything that he's done and said speaks to his patriotism and his belief that he is the best one suited to the job. From the get go (early 90s) he has wanted closer and and friendlier relations with the US but has been rebuffed at every turn. At the time he was confronting a Islamic fundamentalist threat in Chechnya he suggested a return to the WW2 wartime alliance with regard to the War on Terror. He told Bush about intel on a plot brewing in Afghanistan but he was ignored as usual. When 9/11 happened he wrote that he felt responsible. You need to read more about him, there are plenty of articles from reliable publications on the net. The frothing doesn't become you.[/QUOTE]

I think you were frothing before me Paddo. Actually my frothing, if that’s what you call it, was in response to your frothing.

I actually studied both the Russian and Chinese revolutions as part of my HSC Modern History course. I also studied Cuba and the rise of Castro as well as the Vietnam War / Cold War. You’re wrong in believing this has tainted my view of both Russia and China. In fact having studied this unit, I distinctly remember having empathy for the plight of the poor peasant sheeple and being convinced at the time that both revolutions were fully justified. But when we got onto Stalin, well that was a different story. I couldn’t justify some of the things he did. As for Cuba, well the good old USA supporting a corrupt government as I remember, led to Castro’s rise to power. The US role in Vietnam, again turned me against the yanks, I also thought the Cold War was a whole lot of carry on by BOTH Russian and the US. So you are actually wrong in your assessment of my views. I believe I came out of my HSC course with a fairly broad and rounded view of Russia, China and the U.S.

I do think you would be well advised to take a more broader view of Putin as well. You carry on as if he is a saint, which clearly he isn’t. He is neither pure saint nor pure evil, Most people are more complex than that. I do know that the old Trumpstet is a huge fan of Putin so it would seem you and he have a lot in common. I find it ridiculous when the Republicans claim this invasion would not have happened if Trump was around. How exactly when he spent his entire presidency sucking up to him.

[Random Rooster]

Do you think that you may have been thoroughly conditioned re Putin's Russia and, possibly, the Russia of the past?

Yeah check out my post #176.....it addresses facts on Putins past which is littered with invasions of neighbouring countries and indiscriminate killings of civilians. If that has conditioned one to think that Putin is a war criminal.....well whats the alternative? Just forget about these events? No one should really be surprised about their actions in Ukraine, they have done it all before under Putins leadership

It is possible to view Putin in a different light. I don't think that he wants to be a new Tsar, there is zero evidence for that

Like the zero evidence of the Nazi's in Ukraine.....Russia's version of the USA "Weapons of mass destruction"

You need to read more about him, there are plenty of articles from reliable publications on the net

Send some links to some of these articles....i always pay you respect and read them. Gives me a chance to work on my critical thinking and assessing whether they are from a credible source

[mightyrooster]

Paddo and his friend have gone all quiet today. Paddo I replied to your 'the frothing doesn't become you' post. So where's your response to post 206?

[ism22]

Paddo and his friend have gone all quiet today. Paddo I replied to your 'the frothing doesn't become you' post. So where's your response to post 206?

Not gonna post links but it's now at the point where respected investigators of warcrimes have posted photos of civilians with their hands tied, who've clearly been tortured and then murdered. This includes pictures of mass graves and people who've been stuffed down drain pipes by Russian soldiers.

It's sick and indefensible. Sorry Paddo... maybe you'll be on the 'right side of history' next time around, mate?

[mightyrooster]

Not gonna post links but it's now at the point where respected investigators of warcrimes have posted photos of civilians with their hands tied, who've clearly been tortured and then murdered. This includes pictures of mass graves and people who've been stuffed down drain pipes by Russian soldiers.

It's sick and indefensible. Sorry Paddo... maybe you'll be on the 'right side of history' next time around, mate?

Paddo seems to have gone completely off the radar. I hope he’s ok.