Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[eddie]

I'm not complaining Edwin. Sometimes I observe but never complain,

Why do you call me Edwin?

[mightyrooster]

I can only speak for myself, but yes I was opposed to all those invasions.
I think the American economy is geared towards war, their foreign policies indicate this.
Ever since they became a "super-power" post WW2, they've started in Korea, Vietnam , South America and the middle east.

They're so insular they call their local sporting competitions "world series".
I have no time for the yanks.

I couldn’t agree more Eddie. The yanks think the whole world revolves around them, so insular as you say. They go on about democracy and freedom and how wonderful they are and yet they have some of the worst poverty and inequality in the developed world. Their hospital system is a joke and most of the population couldn’t be stuffed voting. They do nothing about the multiple school shootings which happen every year and yet stick steadfastly to the belief that everyone must retain the right to have a gun. What a terrible place to live.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=eddie; Hmmmm.......................some heroes you've got Colt.
It occurs to me that you'd swallow any rubbish Pilger writes.

So this is the sort of stuff you post but you expect to be believed when you claim to have been against all of those ILLEGAL US wars? From whence did your skepticism come? Not John Pilger obviously despite his impressive credentials. Not our MSM surely, it told us that every one of those special operations was either to remove a planet threatening villain or to enshrine Freedom. No, you're either lying or you need to reveal which of your "heroes" it was who removed the blinkers and set you straight?

You're like that other duffer, Randy, who seeks to absolve his obvious right wing gullibility on the basis that he once went to an anti Iraq invasion demo. He sees that as his free pass to talk rubbish with impunity. Probably dragged along by his girlfriend or happened across it on the way to get drunk or bet with mates.

How can we believe anything said by a pensioner who sees his interests best represented by the Bosses' party? You've never explained the logic involved there but as things are, it's high up in the indicia of foolishness.

[eddie]

So this is the sort of stuff you post but you expect to be believed when you claim to have been against all of those ILLEGAL US wars? From whence did your skepticism come? Not John Pilger obviously despite his impressive credentials. Not our MSM surely, it told us that every one of those special operations was either to remove a planet threatening villain or to enshrine Freedom. No, you're either lying or you need to reveal which of your "heroes" it was who removed the blinkers and set you straight?

You're like that other duffer, Randy, who seeks to absolve his obvious right wing gullibility on the basis that he once went to an anti Iraq invasion demo. He sees that as his free pass to talk rubbish with impunity. Probably dragged along by his girlfriend or happened across it on the way to get drunk or bet with mates.

How can we believe anything said by a pensioner who sees his interests best represented by the Bosses' party? You've never explained the logic involved there but as things are, it's high up in the indicia of foolishness.

You just assume too much and try to stereotype me.
I only mentioned your admiration for Pilger to prove you have ovine tendencies , I'm sure not everything he pens is crap, but I'm too cynical to swallow him hook, line and sinker.
If you insist on dragging up one comment I made before the election and twisting it to suit yourself, all I can say is I was looking at the big picture, not my own interests.
Labour does not have a good record when it comes to the budget.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Says who? Look at the recent past. Howard's government twice nominated by the IMF as the most profligate government spenders in OECD. Gut feelings don't come into it.

Don't sweat the sarcasm, I really think that you're far more intelligent than I give you credit for. You write well for a start and having been an educator....

That said, I'm sure that your conditioning is such that you just wouldn't read John Menadue which has credibility and features a Left/Centre perspective (Menadue recently embraced the Catholic Church fgs). Nor would you watch Mike Moore uncritically let alone ol' mate Pilge. See that's what bothers me - an intelligent bloke unwilling to give the other side a dig.

If you have time on your hands which, given your present circumstances, you probably have, there is a terrific book titled "Deer Hunting With Jesus" (Joe Bageant) which describes working class life in his hometown. It's beautifully written and instantly engaging. The library would surely rustle it up for you.

[A Country Member]

I can only speak for myself, but yes I was opposed to all those invasions.
I think the American economy is geared towards war, their foreign policies indicate this.
Ever since they became a "super-power" post WW2, they've started in Korea, Vietnam , South America and the middle east.

They're so insular they call their local sporting competitions "world series".
I have no time for the yanks.

It seems as though the Australian economy is also geared towards war. And thanks to the Libs for identifying this burgeoning ’sector’ and increasing spending accordance with the worlds need for such items.

Also thanks to the people who put on the expo that showcases all this wonderful war craft and weaponry, ADMA (Aerospace Maritime and Defence Foundation of Australia), who are a multi million dollar charity! Yep, that’s right, a registered Australian charity. What good guys.

Here’s an exert from the attached article

Australia is the fourth largest importer of weapons in the world, behind Saudi Arabia, India and Egypt. It is roughly the 20th largest exporter of weapons. This is a disparity former Defence Minister Christopher Pyne, now a defence industry consultant, set out to rectify in 2018 with the launch of the $3 billion Defence Export Strategy after meeting with Abu Dhabi’s Crown Prince Mohamed bin Zayed al Nahyan. Pyne, who was in attendance at Land Forces 2022, stated at the time the goal of making Australia a top-10 exporter.

Over the next decade, the Australian government will invest $200 billion in the Defence Force with an eye to support the weapons export industry. In line with these goals, Australian military spending has shot through the roof – from $10 billion in 2000 to just under $50 billion in the last budget. The big winners? Largely foreign multinational defence contractors, and plenty of small local ones too; they’re growing along with the public spending.

[Random Rooster]

Always with the ad hominem you lot. The lowest debating tactic with the least merit. Address the issues FGS.

You're like that other duffer, Randy, who seeks to absolve his obvious right wing gullibility on the basis that he once went to an anti Iraq invasion demo. He sees that as his free pass to talk rubbish with impunity. Probably dragged along by his girlfriend or happened across it on the way to get drunk or bet with mates

LOL

All class Paddo!

[eddie]

Says who? Look at the recent past. Howard's government twice nominated by the IMF as the most profligate government spenders in OECD. Gut feelings don't come into it.

Don't sweat the sarcasm, I really think that you're far more intelligent than I give you credit for. You write well for a start and having been an educator....

That said, I'm sure that your conditioning is such that you just wouldn't read John Menadue which has credibility and features a Left/Centre perspective (Menadue recently embraced the Catholic Church fgs). Nor would you watch Mike Moore uncritically let alone ol' mate Pilge. See that's what bothers me - an intelligent bloke unwilling to give the other side a dig.

If you have time on your hands which, given your present circumstances, you probably have, there is a terrific book titled "Deer Hunting With Jesus" (Joe Bageant) which describes working class life in his hometown. It's beautifully written and instantly engaging. The library would surely rustle it up for you.

I will take what you said on board. I like to think I'm open minded but perhaps too much cynicism takes the edge off that?
I'm not opposed to everything you write but your antagonism sometimes puts me in a contrary mood..................................I'm only human.
You see, I'm a student of history, and like to base a lot of my opinions on the theory that it often repeats.
If we are talking about America I think it's fair to say they showed their hand during WW2 with arrangements like lend-lease. Their self interest and political ambitions were there to see.
I have more empathy with the Russian people than I do Americans, but can't in all good conscience defend bombing the Ukraine.

I do read quite a lot these days and will look up the book you recommended. I'm hoping it's available on line but need help to organize that.

[eddie]

"Deer Hunting with Jesus is Joe Bageant's report on what he learned when he moved back to his hometown of Winchester, Virginia. Like countless American small towns, it is fast becoming the bedrock of a permanent underclass. Two in five of the people in his old neighborhood do not have high school diplomas or health care. Alcohol, overeating, and Jesus are the preferred avenues of escape."


I shall order it on Friday

[Paddo Colt 61]

You need not buy it, your local library, if they don't have it, will order in for you. Very quickly arrives.

America is an awful society, I doubt that many Australians would survive there. No health care without private insurance, Corporations just packing up and leaving communities in the lurch. The ACTU brought a group of American workers to Australia during the Workchoices campaign. They were amazed by the pay and conditions that workers enjoyed here - like a fantasy land.

Do you just dabble with History? Have you looked at Chinese history and society? For millennia China has been centrally governed essentially by a class of people who have excelled in a nation wide examination system (this is a thousand year old system not the CCP) and so China is/was ruled by the best and brightest. It has always been highly democratic, candidates come from all areas and all classes. The CCP has pretty much morphed into that system and Socialism shares many principles with Confucianism. As I've said before 96% of the population is happy with their government and, let's remember that China (like Russia) is a Capitalist country and stats re its accomplishments show that they do Capitalism better than all the rest.

[ism22]

Paddo you're not a leftie. You're about as far right as it gets. Your hatred of liberal democracies and support of three fascist dictatorships (China, Russia and Saudi Arabia) means that your overall message is:

- China and Russia don't have neighbours. They are empires that have a rusted-on, universal, historic right to 'unite' all their neighbours as part of some fabled empire. Conservative much? In short, you're a simp and a racist. I totally get why you think you're fighting Menzies' anti-commie rants. The world's moved on though! Communist 'revolutionaries' are now rusted-on, right-wing dictatorships while Australia is governed by a centre-left party.

- You chastise people for holding pro-democracy protests, holding elections that don't select puppet leaders, speaking in favour of women's rights and gay rights and standing up for oppressed ethnic minorities within dictatorships (that have separate languages, ethnicities, religions, cultures...etc that the said dictatorships are trying to cleanse them of). These are all modern areas of social progression that China, Russia and Saudi Arabia have an appalling record on when compared with liberal democracies.

- Your heroes comprise a random bunch of misfits who you constantly claim are 'intellectual titans', being silenced as part of a blanket media conspiracy (that would involve highly improbable collusion between the Guardian, Fox, the ABC, the BBC, CNN...etc). In reality these guys are prolific publishers (nobody's silencing them) that have deep links to China/Russia/Saudi Arabia (pretty frigging obvious bobvious based on their heavily biased ramblings). Truth be know... ANYBODY can log-onto johnmwnadue.con (yeah nah... you can't access the BBC/ABC/YouTube/blogs...etc in China). However, their opinions are so irrelevant that nobody gives a cr@p about what they have to say.

- The world's a LOT smarter than you think. This includes having the ability to filter out biased cr@p from questionable characters that all reads like 'eeeerm... is this guy being paid by Russia to say this? He seems dismissive that "the west" can do ANY good and wears rose coloured glasses when talking a place that's currently trying to steal a neighbouring country by first stacking its government with Russian loyalist puppets and then bombing the cr@p outta it when they elect somebody else'.

[eddie]

Do you just dabble with History? Have you looked at Chinese history and society? For millennia China has been centrally governed essentially by a class of people who have excelled in a nation wide examination system (this is a thousand year old system not the CCP) and so China is/was ruled by the best and brightest. It has always been highly democratic, candidates come from all areas and all classes. The CCP has pretty much morphed into that system and Socialism shares many principles with Confucianism. As I've said before 96% of the population is happy with their government and, let's remember that China (like Russia) is a Capitalist country and stats re its accomplishments show that they do Capitalism better than all the rest.

Depends on your definition of "dabble".
I think in the last few years it's been more than that.
I have covered modern history for the time being, and are currently studying the middle ages, but I have yet to leave Europe.
Haven't got round to ancient Chinese history, only know basic things like the dynasties and their art work.

[eddie]

America is an awful society, I doubt that many Australians would survive there. No health care without private insurance, Corporations just packing up and leaving communities in the lurch. The ACTU brought a group of American workers to Australia during the Workchoices campaign. They were amazed by the pay and conditions that workers enjoyed here - like a fantasy land.
.

Agree completely.
I have an older sister who lived for years in Texas, and a younger brother who has lived in a few parts of America for the last decade. I could tell a lot of stories about the terrible health care system and the inadequate police forces.
Ironically my brother only moved over there because Australians on the whole were not gullible enough to fall for his line of work.

[Andrew Walker]

Agree completely.
I have an older sister who lived for years in Texas, and a younger brother who has lived in a few parts of America for the last decade. I could tell a lot of stories about the terrible health care system and the inadequate police forces.
Ironically my brother only moved over there because Australians on the whole were not gullible enough to fall for his line of work.

The last 2 and a half years tells me I think it is time for him to move back Australia is well and truly ready for your Brother.

[eddie]

The last 2 and a half years tells me I think it is time for him to move back Australia is well and truly ready for your Brother.

LOL.........You might be right But I dunno.
You see, my brother is a "space clearer"...............He'll charge you a fortune to come round your house with incense , ringing bells and chanting. This gets rid of bad vibes and such.
It didn't wash over here, but the yanks are lapping it up. Apparently he's doing very well.