Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[mightyrooster]

Agree completely.
I have an older sister who lived for years in Texas, and a younger brother who has lived in a few parts of America for the last decade. I could tell a lot of stories about the terrible health care system and the inadequate police forces.
Ironically my brother only moved over there because Australians on the whole were not gullible enough to fall for his line of work.

We had a guy do some home reno work for us recently. He's American but has been living in Aus for a while now. He recently returned to the States for the first time since covid and was telling us that the place is worse than he can remember. He said the people were really hostile and unfriendly and they seem to have forgotten how to communicate. He said the change was really obvious to him.

[Paddo Colt 61]

There's a Pen contributor who lives over there. I've forgotten whom it is but it would be good to hear about everyday life for ordinary people in his area.

I lived in NYC for a year back in the early 70s. In hindsight it was a youthful fantasy that I was indulging. I lived in shared digs, minimum wage courier at the UN, Pizzas and all you can eat for $10 - NY was/is a rich man's town. Later driving across, my main impression was the poverty, the vast mobile home parks where people lived permanently and the food franchise malls in every town (no greasy spoons - independent eateries - anymore). That food wears very thin after a few days and it was timely to get to Texas, visit Buddy Holly's grave and pig out on Huevos Rancheros and real Tex Mex food.

In Memphis, after the forgettable Graceland, we stayed in a motel near a military air base with B-52s taking off and landing all night - round the clock security - a nuclear response group in the air 24/7.

Izzy, please enough with the psycho analysis. My dislike of the West is soundly based - it's a grouping of Imperialists and ex Imperialists. China does not go in for Empires, historically its gravitational pull has been such that sheer size impels its neighbours to seek its favour. Near neighbours, like Vietnam, have never been happy with that but it is what it is.

Russia was an Imperial power historically though the post war arrangement was not Imperial by design. Russia, having had its infrastructure all but destroyed and up to 30 million dead, looked to its future security while it stripped former invaders of whatever could be used to replace what they had destroyed. All that while it rejected Marshall Plan aid to preserve its integrity.

Our present world security is the result of struggle between Capitalists where a previously dominant power is unwilling to compromise on who makes the rules, market share and influence and economic hegemony. Fighting for freedom is a bullshit reason.

By 1905 Japan had transformed, at the stroke of a pen in 1860. In a remarkable 40 years, an in order to avoid Western Imperial domination, it went from a closed feudal society to a world industrial power and therefore an economic threat to US hegemony in Asia. Unable to expand and forced into a corner because of the iron fist of the US which limited Japanese access to oil and restricted the size of is navy (see Treaty Of Washington), Japan invaded a China weakened by colonial carve ups since the early 19th Century. Later. in an attempt to break US blocks to their Asian expansion, they declared war on Uncle Sam. In their view they had been forced into it, strangled by an Imperial Superpower. It was, as Marx predicted, a Capitalist war and not much has changed.

[Random Rooster]

Damn Americans up to no good again......this time they are behind all those women protesting throughout Iran.


Luckily they didn't fool Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei who declared "I say clearly that these riots and the insecurity were engineered by America and the occupying, false Zionist regime [Israel], as well as their paid agents, with the help of some traitorous Iranians abroad."

[mightyrooster]

Damn Americans up to no good again......this time they are behind all those women protesting throughout Iran.


Luckily they didn't fool Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei who declared "I say clearly that these riots and the insecurity were engineered by America and the occupying, false Zionist regime [Israel], as well as their paid agents, with the help of some traitorous Iranians abroad."

Lol...

[eddie]

By 1905 Japan had transformed, at the stroke of a pen in 1860. In a remarkable 40 years, an in order to avoid Western Imperial domination, it went from a closed feudal society to a world industrial power and therefore an economic threat to US hegemony in Asia. Unable to expand and forced into a corner because of the iron fist of the US which limited Japanese access to oil and restricted the size of is navy (see Treaty Of Washington), Japan invaded a China weakened by colonial carve ups since the early 19th Century. Later. in an attempt to break US blocks to their Asian expansion, they declared war on Uncle Sam. In their view they had been forced into it, strangled by an Imperial Superpower. It was, as Marx predicted, a Capitalist war and not much has changed.

I've read a good book on this, I forget the title, something like the 10 year economic war?
It's a step by step account of the decade prior to Pearl Harbour, and details the American governments attempts to strangle Japan economically.
I've always questioned Japanese conduct during the war, but not their reasoning for getting involved.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Random Rooster; Damn Americans up to no good again......this time they are behind all those women protesting throughout Iran.

Anyone who doesn't think that the US is involved in any destabilisation in any nation which challenges it is ether a gullible devotee of the MSM or a straight out fool. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Cuba, Venezuela (in fact most of South America) and Eastern Europe have, in every case, endured US interference. There have been numerous regime changes since the war and assassinations. It funds emigre groups and its Intelligence services funnel money through those groups to other organisations in the target country. In Ukraine, which is the poorest and most corrupt in Europe, that meant funding fascist groups from the western part of the country and through them financing a TV station to whip up popular "dissent" among the sheeple. When the protests got a big enough bandwagon thing going in 2014, the crowds were fired on by Nazi snipers, shrill voices then blaming the elected government and Western media took up the refrain. They've done the same thing time after time in my lifetime.

[Random Rooster]

n.

Anyone who doesn't think that the US is involved in any destabilisation in any nation which challenges it is ether a gullible devotee of the MSM or a straight out fool. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Cuba, Venezuela (in fact most of South America) and Eastern Europe have, in every case, endured US interference. There have been numerous regime changes since the war and assassinations. It funds emigre groups and its Intelligence services funnel money through those groups to other organisations in the target country. In Ukraine, which is the poorest and most corrupt in Europe, that meant funding fascist groups from the western part of the country and through them financing a TV station to whip up popular "dissent" among the sheeple. When the protests got a big enough bandwagon thing going in 2014, the crowds were fired on by Nazi snipers, shrill voices then blaming the elected government and Western media took up the refrain. They've done the same thing time after time in my lifetime.

So you do agree with the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei! Surprise Surprise

You should book your next holiday to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Personally endorsed by Putin & Xi, 100% of its residents are very happy with their living standards and life in general. Kim Jung even swaps love letters with Trump- what more can one want?

By the way we have covered in depth the Ukraine 2014 in previous posts. You have created a fallious world in your mind. It takes more than 1 TV station to "whip up popular dissent among the sheepie" . Do you really believe that nearly all the worlds MSM network collaborate to feed you complete lies? If you do then old mate Trump agrees with you, as do all his nutcase right wing followers. Good luck with that!

[ism22]

Russia was an Imperial power historically though the post war arrangement was not Imperial by design. Russia, having had its infrastructure all but destroyed and up to 30 million dead, looked to its future security while it stripped former invaders of whatever could be used to replace what they had destroyed. All that while it rejected Marshall Plan aid to preserve its integrity.

Both the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China are relatively new concepts. Similarly the Commonwealth of Australia and USA (both of which are older countries BTW) are the modern result of the British Empire being broken up by choice.

Your (ultra-conservative - in no way left-wing) argument is akin to saying that King Charles has a right to reunite the British Empire. It shows a basic understanding of history. Like... really basic history.

Conservative dictators like Vlad and Winnie are both butt-hurt that their neighbours (many of whom have cultural and linguistic ties/similarities) broke away from them and have decided not to be part of their 'empires'. In their minds, 'similarities' means 'they are rightfully part of us'. This has zero credence and small players can't fight bullies by themselves. Hence why the free world has a role in protecting them from bullies on the international stage (plus making solid relationships with EVERYBODY, not just larger, more outspoken countries... not that Russia's any bigger than us BTW, it just chooses to spend a lot on arms and space programs rather than left-wing policies such as social welfare).

By the way, my father-in-law (who was a senior member of the Vietnamese Communist Party and is a Vietnamese loyalist) would agree with my above paragraph. He fears the fact that China teaches its kids that Vietnam's part of their 'empire' (without any valid basis) will one day lead to his country becoming a target of 'unification' policies. Somewhere along the line I think you forgot to travel around Asia and ask locals what they think about aggressive players on the geopolitical scene. This includes his opinion that Britain eventually allowed countries be free, which has helped with their prosperity as it's not constantly trying to capture/influence them. If Vlad and Jinping had a similar arrangement, I'm sure more of their neighbours would voluntarily want closer ties...

[King Salvo]

So you do agree with the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei! Surprise Surprise

You should book your next holiday to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Personally endorsed by Putin & Xi, 100% of its residents are very happy with their living standards and life in general. Kim Jung even swaps love letters with Trump- what more can one want?

By the way we have covered in depth the Ukraine 2014 in previous posts. You have created a fallious world in your mind. It takes more than 1 TV station to "whip up popular dissent among the sheepie" . Do you really believe that nearly all the worlds MSM network collaborate to feed you complete lies? If you do then old mate Trump agrees with you, as do all his nutcase right wing followers. Good luck with that!

Old Paddo talks the talk but can he walk the walk and migrate to any of these countries who system of Government and ideologies he supports i.e Russia/North Korea/China/Cuba/Belarus for instance

I guarantee he wouldn't.

[King Salvo]

There's a Pen contributor who lives over there. I've forgotten whom it is but it would be good to hear about everyday life for ordinary people in his area.

I lived in NYC for a year back in the early 70s. In hindsight it was a youthful fantasy that I was indulging. I lived in shared digs, minimum wage courier at the UN, Pizzas and all you can eat for $10 - NY was/is a rich man's town. Later driving across, my main impression was the poverty, the vast mobile home parks where people lived permanently and the food franchise malls in every town (no greasy spoons - independent eateries - anymore). That food wears very thin after a few days and it was timely to get to Texas, visit Buddy Holly's grave and pig out on Huevos Rancheros and real Tex Mex food.

In Memphis, after the forgettable Graceland, we stayed in a motel near a military air base with B-52s taking off and landing all night - round the clock security - a nuclear response group in the air 24/7.

Izzy, please enough with the psycho analysis. My dislike of the West is soundly based - it's a grouping of Imperialists and ex Imperialists. China does not go in for Empires, historically its gravitational pull has been such that sheer size impels its neighbours to seek its favour. Near neighbours, like Vietnam, have never been happy with that but it is what it is.

Russia was an Imperial power historically though the post war arrangement was not Imperial by design. Russia, having had its infrastructure all but destroyed and up to 30 million dead, looked to its future security while it stripped former invaders of whatever could be used to replace what they had destroyed. All that while it rejected Marshall Plan aid to preserve its integrity.

Our present world security is the result of struggle between Capitalists where a previously dominant power is unwilling to compromise on who makes the rules, market share and influence and economic hegemony. Fighting for freedom is a bullshit reason.

By 1905 Japan had transformed, at the stroke of a pen in 1860. In a remarkable 40 years, an in order to avoid Western Imperial domination, it went from a closed feudal society to a world industrial power and therefore an economic threat to US hegemony in Asia. Unable to expand and forced into a corner because of the iron fist of the US which limited Japanese access to oil and restricted the size of is navy (see Treaty Of Washington), Japan invaded a China weakened by colonial carve ups since the early 19th Century. Later. in an attempt to break US blocks to their Asian expansion, they declared war on Uncle Sam. In their view they had been forced into it, strangled by an Imperial Superpower. It was, as Marx predicted, a Capitalist war and not much has changed.

Comrade Paddo - Comrade General Secretary Marshal Stalin rejected Marshall Aid because he believed economic integration with the West would allow Eastern Bloc countries to escape Soviet control.

Churchill's famous words “From Stettin in the Baltic, to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent"

They had to wait till 1991 to escape and they left in their droves didn't they and none / zero/zilch would ever want to go back to that system and be controlled by the commo cronies in Mockba - Gulags/Secret Police (KGB/Stasi/SB) etc

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Random Rooster; So you do agree with the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei! Surprise Surprise

You should book your next holiday to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Personally endorsed by Putin & Xi, 100% of its residents are very happy with their living standards and life in general. Kim Jung even swaps love letters with Trump- what more can one want?

By the way we have covered in depth the Ukraine 2014 in previous posts. You have created a fallious world in your mind. It takes more than 1 TV station to "whip up popular dissent among the sheepie" . Do you really believe that nearly all the worlds MSM network collaborate to feed you complete lies? If you do then old mate Trump agrees with you, as do all his nutcase right wing followers. Good luck with that.

* The US engineered a coup in Iranin the 1950s that saw the replacement of a democratically elected government by a cruel dictatorship which persecuted the clergy and murdered and imprisoned thousands. The jubilation was clear to see when the Shah was ousted and taken in by the US.
* During the Korean war the US pretty much obliterated North Korea with napalm and anti defoliants which take generations to dissipate if ever. Now the US ridicules it with regard to famines which they alone caused. The people know who did that to them and it wasn't their government. Have you noticed, Kim enjoys popular support.
* I presume that you mean "fallacious"? I believe that the white man's media - Western media is dominated by the US "news services" and, of course, not wanting to get offside with he big Kahuna by telling the whole story plays a part.

That protest that you attended has gone to your head Buddy. One afternoon out and you're the font of all wisdom except you ain't. You do no research and you could, it's all out there. Far easier to yell "Left Wing!!!".

[Paddo Colt 61]

Izzie, you've worn me down and I can't respond to nonsense it only encourages you. Empire wasn't surrendered out of the goodness of British hearts. Empire went against all of the principles that the anti fascist war espoused. They were forced to give it up by the yanks but they didn't conform easily, The Brits were still at it in 1956 over Suez.

[Random Rooster]

* During the Korean war the US pretty much obliterated North Korea with napalm and anti defoliants which take generations to dissipate if ever. Now the US ridicules it with regard to famines which they alone caused. The people know who did that to them and it wasn't their government. Have you noticed, Kim enjoys popular support.

Wow. Paddo's distortion levels have hit new levels. At what point should we start feeling a bit sorry for him?

[King Salvo]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n967046][QUOTE=Random Rooster; So you do agree with the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei! Surprise Surprise

You should book your next holiday to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Personally endorsed by Putin & Xi, 100% of its residents are very happy with their living standards and life in general. Kim Jung even swaps love letters with Trump- what more can one want?

By the way we have covered in depth the Ukraine 2014 in previous posts. You have created a fallious world in your mind. It takes more than 1 TV station to "whip up popular dissent among the sheepie" . Do you really believe that nearly all the worlds MSM network collaborate to feed you complete lies? If you do then old mate Trump agrees with you, as do all his nutcase right wing followers. Good luck with that.

* The US engineered a coup in Iranin the 1950s that saw the replacement of a democratically elected government by a cruel dictatorship which persecuted the clergy and murdered and imprisoned thousands. The jubilation was clear to see when the Shah was ousted and taken in by the US.
* During the Korean war the US pretty much obliterated North Korea with napalm and anti defoliants which take generations to dissipate if ever. Now the US ridicules it with regard to famines which they alone caused. The people know who did that to them and it wasn't their government. Have you noticed, Kim enjoys popular support.
* I presume that you mean "fallacious"? I believe that the white man's media - Western media is dominated by the US "news services" and, of course, not wanting to get offside with he big Kahuna by telling the whole story plays a part.

That protest that you attended has gone to your head Buddy. One afternoon out and you're the font of all wisdom except you ain't. You do no research and you could, it's all out there. Far easier to yell "Left Wing!!!".[/QUOTE]

mmm Comrade Kim enjoys popular support !!!!! - gees those that don't support him are never seen again - It's a centralised totalitarian state with sham elections for starters

[King Salvo]

Wow. Paddo's distortion levels have hit new levels. At what point should we start feeling a bit sorry for him?

Old Comrade Paddo is like those old party commo's in their retirement residences in Mockba pining for the "good old days" of the Soviet Union.

Each year they along with others fond of the Soviet Union Days march to Red Square with their commo banners / hammer and cycle flags/pictures of Lenin , Marx and even Stalin to commemorate the October Revolution.

Stalin was even worse than Hitler - One of their Top Commanders from WW2(Great Patriotic War) Marshal Zhukov lived until Stalin's death with a packed suit case near the door of his apartment convinced that Stalin would have him arrested and sent to a Gulag in Siberia or executed.

Old Stalin was big on lists of those either to be sent to Gulags or executed - late night or early morning "raids" on those folks homes

You have to scratch your head and wonder how anyone could support such an ideology as Communism as their leaders were all the same-despots - 100's of millions forced into hard labour or executed under their regimes - i.e Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Ho Chi Minh/ Kim II-Sung/Castro