Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[King Salvo]

In my estimation the US is the bad guy but it is also the estimation of most of the world apart from the Anglosphere. Also I've never said that Russia and China were "white angels" but I have said both, and especially Russia, have case.

During this week Sergei Lavrov the Russian foreign minister accused the US of lying about there having been no peace talk proposals by Russia. Note that it was proposals to the US not to the Ukraine. If any further proof was needed, that peace talk rejection alone tells us that the US is running the whole show and that Ukraine is a puppet state. The US is willing to fight to the last plucky little Ukrainian it seems.

The US has moved the Command Centre to East Germany where it can get on with its high tech offensive without the Ukrainians stuffing things up. It is the US that has been providing and operating the very sophisticated weaponry that has sunk a Russian flagship and targeted Russian senior command. Remember it was US insistence on militarising territory right up to the Russian border that caused the conflict in the first place. Now it won't allow the Ukraine to entertain peace discussions which is a worry because the Pentagon has said that the Ukraine can't win.

As they've said previously, the war aim is to weaken Russia to the fullest extent possible. Meanwhile with every escalation of High Tech weaponry, the risk of a nuclear exchange by a frustrated Putin, grows more and more likely.

Predictably, I've not seen any mention of this in our MSM.

Russia's so called peace deal involved them annexing significant swathes of Ukraine Territory and forcing Ukraine to accept Russian occupation and once that happened they would not stop until they annexed the whole of Ukraine.

Any European Country West/Central and East can join any organisation they wish too as they are sovereign countries and free to set their own destinies as they are not satellite puppet states under the influence of Cronies in Moscow

What next will you say the Berlin Wall wasn't built to keep the East Germans in it was built to keep the West out.

Oh and by the way East Germany was dissolved on 3rd October 1990 - it does not exist anymore and neither does the Soviet Union - you are way behind the times.

As Jefferson Davis said “If the Confederacy falls, there should be written on its tombstone: Died of a theory.” - Be an apt Tombstone for your beloved Soviet Union and Communism too.

[Paddo Colt 61]

At least the Eggspert is doing some rational thinking (#350). At what point does the possibility of nuclear war trump blind ideology?

Salvo, Again what's all this Communist smeer about and who are the Communists involved in the Ukraine stoush?

I would imagine that the Minsk Agreement would play a part in any peace arrangements as would a NATO ban. See below.

Eastern Germany, as a geographical expression, still exists last time I looked and there are alternative views on the partition of Berlin after the war. Predictably you share the US view as you do on just about every issue involving it no matter how egregious and preposterous.

Ms Rooster continues with the fiction that she is awake to the US and yet takes its part at every opportunity on the pretext that she knows what beelzebub Putin is up to and, by God, he's not gonna get away with it, not on her watch. His enemy is her friend. The bedrock of her non negotiable position on Russia is the MSM (and probably the Commercial brand not that the ABC is any more objective) and of course a sense of morality which was curiously absent re The Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Randy raised the Budapest memorandum but the relevant and more specific agreement is the Minsk one in which parties, including the Ukraine, agreed to the partition of the Russian majority regions in the East as autonomous areas and which the UNSC ratified but the US, oops, Ukraine reneged on. The Budapest agreement was about arms reduction and future security arrangements which pretty much depend on a point of view. Russia had the view that it was in danger of aggression given the behaviour of the US since Clinton and Ukraine's plans to join NATO, oops again, the US's plans.

Look, I'm saying that Russia has a serious point and it was/is cavalierly ignored. The same militarisation of the East by the US was criticised by statesmen the world over including our Paul Keating and now it has come to this.

[ism22]

Think twice about siding against Russia as they're threatening to go nuclear.

Good to see you're a man of principles mate.

Lemme guess. You walk down the road, see a guy getting bashed and then go punch him in the stomach because the attackers look aggressive (so you don't wanna be on the 'wrong side' of the fight)? Nice one buddy.

We should all follow your example Paeddo... /sarcasm

[King Salvo]

Brainwashed Old Commo Comrade Paddo is still confused in what year it is and about most other things too as he obviously visits too many conspiracy and fictional sites based on the dribble he not only posts but actually believes.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and neither does the Warsaw Pact

Who has threatened to use Nuclear Weapons though mmm Russia is the only one that has

Your Hero little legs Putin said the Minsk agreements no longer exist in any case.

[Andrew Walker]

Brainwashed Old Commo Comrade Paddo is still confused in what year it is and about most other things too as he obviously visits too many conspiracy and fictional sites based on the dribble he not only posts but actually believes.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and neither does the Warsaw Pact

Who has threatened to use Nuclear Weapons though mmm Russia is the only one that has

Your Hero little legs Putin said the Minsk agreements no longer exist in any case.

Out of interest who is the only country to launch a full scale nuclear strike against another country Was this the same country that had us on the brink of destruction with the bay of pigs.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=ism22; Good to see you're a man of principles mate.
Lemme guess. You walk down the road, see a guy getting bashed and then go punch him in the stomach because the attackers look aggressive (so you don't wanna be on the 'wrong side' of the fight)? Nice one buddy. We should all follow your example Paeddo... /sarcasm.

I don't recognise the quotation that you've used as mine. Please provide the original #.

Am looking at the actionability of your use of "Paeddo". A bridge too far given the gullibility of the general public.

Hey King? Where'd ya get the map man? News Ltd?

Still don't get the "reds under the bed" thing. Please explain.

I'm not a Communist. The job has been well and truly done on the ideology in the West and particularly in Oz where it has been conflated with an anti Asian racism of long standing. Given, however, that we live on a planet with finite resources, I'd say that communalism is likely to prevail in the distant future when Capitalism becomes unsustainable but even then not before an almighty catastrophic rear guard action by the white West aka the USA.

We (OZ) will no doubt be a part if that reaction. We've already seen with the bugging of the Timor L'Este government and the filching of their natural resources that we have little regard for others particularly coloured people. But that's down to our leaders who exploit the gormlessness on the majority of the population.

How gormless? Well Australia leads the world by the length of the straight when it comes to gambling. On commercial media there are several hundred ads promoting gambling daily whereas in the UK there are just 11. Gambling is promoted to the young masses as good times where everyone's a winner. Hook 'em young then watch the misery unfold as they go through life. We ain't no smart nation no fear of that.

[ism22]

Brainwashed Old Commo Comrade Paddo is still confused in what year it is and about most other things too as he obviously visits too many conspiracy and fictional sites based on the dribble he not only posts but actually believes.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and neither does the Warsaw Pact

Who has threatened to use Nuclear Weapons though mmm Russia is the only one that has

Your Hero little legs Putin said the Minsk agreements no longer exist in any case.

Love the map - simplifies it for those who struggle with such concepts. Particularly those who think the Cold War's ongoing and geopolitics have in no way progressed since.

Old mate reminds me of that Japanese soldier who until recently camped out in the Philippines, lived off the land and occasionally lobbed explosives at people as he refused to believe that WWII was over unless the words came from his commanding officer (who was ~90 so they had to roll him out there in a wheelchair in order to give the order to stand down).

[King Salvo]

Out of interest who is the only country to launch a full scale nuclear strike against another country Was this the same country that had us on the brink of destruction with the bay of pigs.

No it wasn't - The Nuclear bombs were necessary to end the pacific war as imagine if the Japanese islands all had to be invaded to defeat the Japanese - how many would have died then - military personal from both sides plus civilians.

The Japanese were not known for surrendering and I have seen documentaries where the civilians including school kids were being trained to repel the invaders with rocks and sharpened bamboo poles sticks.

In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and 5 to 10 million Japanese dead.

The USSR had the world on the brink of nuclear War due to them installing nuclear ballistic missiles in Cuba

[Andrew Walker]

No it wasn't - The Nuclear bombs were necessary to end the pacific war as imagine if the Japanese islands all had to be invaded to defeat the Japanese - how many would have died then - military personal from both sides plus civilians.

The Japanese were not known for surrendering and I have seen documentaries where the civilians including school kids were trained to repel the invaders with rocks and sharpened bamboo sticks.

In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and 5 to 10 million Japanese dead.

The USSR had the world on the brink of nuclear War due to them installing nuclear ballistic missiles in Cuba

I am not debating the morals or reasoning for The USA being only the only country to use nuclear on another country. But the fact is they are the only country to do so. In Cuba Russia did erect nuclear warheads aimed at USA no denying that. It does not mean they were going ti use them. There is a no denying we were on the highest alert possible for a nuclear attack again by the Americans but this time on the Russians if they did not remove them. The Russians or Krushchev backed down at the last minute but make no mistake USA would have attacked and the Russians would have countered which would have had catastrophic consequences for the word as we know it. But once again it was the good old USA the shining beacon of international morality threating to use these weapons

These are the facts what you have written is propoganda not fact

[King Salvo]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n967278][QUOTE=ism22; Good to see you're a man of principles mate.
Lemme guess. You walk down the road, see a guy getting bashed and then go punch him in the stomach because the attackers look aggressive (so you don't wanna be on the 'wrong side' of the fight)? Nice one buddy. We should all follow your example Paeddo... /sarcasm.

I don't recognise the quotation that you've used as mine. Please provide the original #.

Am looking at the actionability of your use of "Paeddo". A bridge too far given the gullibility of the general public.

Hey King? Where'd ya get the map man? News Ltd?

Still don't get the "reds under the bed" thing. Please explain.

I'm not a Communist. The job has been well and truly done on the ideology in the West and particularly in Oz where it has been conflated with an anti Asian racism of long standing. Given, however, that we live on a planet with finite resources, I'd say that communalism is likely to prevail in the distant future when Capitalism becomes unsustainable but even then not before an almighty catastrophic rear guard action by the white West aka the USA.

We (OZ) will no doubt be a part if that reaction. We've already seen with the bugging of the Timor L'Este government and the filching of their natural resources that we have little regard for others particularly coloured people. But that's down to our leaders who exploit the gormlessness on the majority of the population.

How gormless? Well Australia leads the world by the length of the straight when it comes to gambling. On commercial media there are several hundred ads promoting gambling daily whereas in the UK there are just 11. Gambling is promoted to the young masses as good times where everyone's a winner. Hook 'em young then watch the misery unfold as they go through life. We ain't no smart nation no fear of that.
[/QUOTE]

Well your hoping for the day it comes back as you say " it's likely to prevail over that evil Capitalism in the distant future" - Yes I admit a small minority would love it to come back you being one but the vast majority and those born post USSR would never want it to come back in any way shape or form.

Just in passing did the USSR/China/North Korea/Cuba/Vietnam do anything wrong at all in your eyes ever.

[King Salvo]

I am not debating the morals or reasoning for The USA being only the only country to use nuclear on another country. But the fact is they are the only country to do so. In Cuba Russia did erect nuclear warheads aimed at USA no denying that. It does not mean they were going ti use them. There is a no denying we were on the highest alert possible for a nuclear attack again by the Americans but this time on the Russians if they did not remove them. The Russians or Krushchev backed down at the last minute but make no mistake USA would have attacked and the Russians would have countered which would have had catastrophic consequences for the word as we know it. But once again it was the good old USA the shining beacon of international morality threating to use these weapons

These are the facts what you have written is propaganda not fact

Ah yes mine is propaganda and your's is fact - spoken like a true comrade -- you have a kindred spirit in old comrade paddo.

[Andrew Walker]

What part of my recount on that bit of history is propaganda or false

[ism22]

What part of my recount on that bit of history is propaganda or false

I think the point is that there's no dichotomy whereby those who condemn Russia's actions must support the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Some of us just don't like war... particularly expansionary dictatorships doing gratuitous land grabs.

[Andrew Walker]

I think the point is that there's no dichotomy whereby those who condemn Russia's actions must support the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Some of us just don't like war... particularly expansionary dictatorships doing gratuitous land grabs.

You are definitely speaking for yourself here and not Sally,fair enough. It appears Sally has supported these bombings by saying it was a necessary act to stop the war and going to the extent to present modelling of the supposed numbers of lives that would have been lost had this act not occurred. Which is propaganda I’ve only presented facts I’ve asked for him to tell me where my recount of history was wrong with what happened in the 60s with bay of pigs invasion ( a gratuitous land grab in its own right) and the aftermath of that. Which Sally has not and you in taking the time to reply have not.

[eddie]

And Harry Truman dropped the bomb.............................so I could go to sleep at night.
Stan Ridgway.