Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo; No it wasn't - The Nuclear bombs were necessary to end the pacific war as imagine if the Japanese islands all had to be invaded to defeat the Japanese - how many would have died then - military personal from both sides plus civilians.
The Japanese were not known for surrendering and I have seen documentaries where the civilians including school kids were being trained to repel the invaders with rocks and sharpened bamboo poles sticks.
In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and [B]5 to 10 million[/B] Japanese dead.
The USSR had the world on the brink of nuclear War due to them installing nuclear ballistic missiles in Cuba.
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Absolute bilge representative of a life in thrall to the MSM, itself dedicated to mission America.

* The Japanese had begun peace overtures with the Swiss as intermediaries. The US wanted to deter Russia joining the Japanese war. The only Nation who had defeated the Japanese in the 30s was Russia and the Red Army.

* You've seen documentaries? You'd applaud the Ukraine for doing the same thing - training kids etc.

* After being targeted by US missile bases in Turkey and given Cuba's parlous position after the Bay of Pigs, the Soviets gave the US a taste of what it might be like to be under nuclear threat and didn't that cause consternation? Few realise that the final settlement included the removal of the US/Turkish bases - it was a win for the Soviets but we hear nothing of that.

[ism22]

In summary:

- I condemn the USA bombing Japan at the end of WWII. This is inexcusable and means it's horrible.

- I'm cool with Russia invading Ukraine because they're ethnically similar, some Russians live in Ukraine and Ukraine used to be part of the USSR so there's a bit of history there.

- Let's debate WWII instead of how Russia's being a d!ck in 2022.

Happy to discuss WWII in another thread, noting it's another kettle of fish.

I remain opposed to war. In this case, Russia's invading Ukraine. Apparently you are cool with Russia bombing the cr@p outta a neighbour in an attempt to re-build the USSR. Each to their own I guess. Respect your take... disagree though.

[Random Rooster]

Absolute bilge representative of a life in thrall to the MSM, itself dedicated to mission America.

* The Japanese had begun peace overtures with the Swiss as intermediaries. The US wanted to deter Russia joining the Japanese war. The only Nation who had defeated the Japanese in the 30s was Russia and the Red Army.

* You've seen documentaries? You'd applaud the Ukraine for doing the same thing - training kids etc.

* After being targeted by US missile bases in Turkey and given Cuba's parlous position after the Bay of Pigs, the Soviets gave the US a taste of what it might be like to be under nuclear threat and didn't that cause consternation? Few realise that the final settlement included the removal of the US/Turkish bases - it was a win for the Soviets but we hear nothing of that.

Nice work Paddo!

Since you're up to date with Japan's efforts to negotiate peace perhaps you can give details on how they went about it. Be sure to mention Japanese Commander Yoshiro Fujimara, who the Americans asked for proof that he had the authority to undertake the peace talks with the Swiss- however no proof was given because he didn't have the authority. Fujimara has witnessed Nazi Germany get annihilated & his intentions were to stop the same happening to Japan...but his superiors would never agree to anything besides "establishing peace in the Far East"-even if it would mean committing suicide....."establishing Peace...." was code for total domination of the area. It's a bit like Putin's bullshit "special operation" to rid Ukraine of Nazis and send in peace keeping troops.

The Japanese were going to fight on no matter what- that's what is instilled in their military. To die for your country is honour. To suggest otherwise is simply a lie.

They miscalculated with Pearl Harbour by thinking the attack would bring the Americans (who had all but cut off their oil supply) to the negotiation table but instead got a return serve that ended the war.

Now there were other avenues re Japan/Swiss/American peace talks but none of them involved any Japanese official being giving official authority to be a partner to these peace talks.

[Andrew Walker]

Happy to discuss WWII in another thread, noting it's another kettle of fish.

I remain opposed to war. In this case, Russia's invading Ukraine. Apparently you are cool with Russia bombing the cr@p outta a neighbour in an attempt to re-build the USSR. Each to their own I guess. Respect your take... disagree though.

You really do like to talk for others you did it for Sally and now you have put words in my mouth. Show me where have I said I’m cool with anything of the sort you mention. I have though pointed out America is the only country to have launched a nuclear attack on another country. This was in response to the inference or suggestion Russia was likely to start a nuclear war over this. But of course when unable to refute or disprove anything I’ve said you and Sally then resort to putting words in my mouth or labelling me in an ideological sense.

[ism22]

You really do like to talk for others you did it for Sally and now you have put words in my mouth. Show me where have I said I’m cool with anything of the sort you mention. I have though pointed out America is the only country to have launched a nuclear attack on another country. This was in response to the inference or suggestion Russia was likely to start a nuclear war over this. But of course when unable to refute or disprove anything I’ve said you and Sally then resort to putting words in my mouth or labelling me in an ideological sense.

Sorry I'm having trouble using the quote function, just like old mate

[eddie]

This thread digresses , but that's cool.
Did America have to drop the bomb?
The theory that a protracted war would cost a lot more lives has been widely accepted and could well be true. But was that the motivation?
I actually agree with Paddo Colt that the true motive was to end the conflict before Russia could share in the spoils. Any truce at that point was unlikely as America were insisting on unconditional surrender only.
Had America persisted with their submarine campaign which was working well by 1945, Japan could've been strangled into submission. At the very least their ability to wage war would've been nil.
But history shows the path America took, and thus began the cold war.

[Andrew Walker]

This thread digresses , but that's cool.
Did America have to drop the bomb?
The theory that a protracted war would cost a lot more lives has been widely accepted and could well be true. But was that the motivation?
I actually agree with Paddo Colt that the true motive was to end the conflict before Russia could share in the spoils. Any truce at that point was unlikely as America were insisting on unconditional surrender only.
Had America persisted with their submarine campaign which was working well by 1945, Japan could've been strangled into submission. At the very least their ability to wage war would've been nil.
But history shows the path America took, and thus began the cold war.

It is the off season Eddie We must somehow keep this place active in any way we can I have to say Im very disappointed in Paddo Colt who appears to have thrown his toys out of the cot and is no longer contributing to his wonderful poetry thread as it has not gone in the trajectory of the manner he had hoped

[mightyrooster]

I agree that the US did not need to drop the bomb on Japan and their 'formal' reasons were not the actual real reason it was done. It is America that opened that can of worms and the world of geopolitics was changed from that day on.

[mightyrooster]

It is the off season Eddie We must somehow keep this place active in any way we can I have to say Im very disappointed in Paddo Colt who appears to have thrown his toys out of the cot and is no longer contributing to his wonderful poetry thread as it has not gone in the trajectory of the manner he had hoped

I even added a new poem to the poetry thread but it has been ignored ever since. Maybe I am to blame lol!

[King Salvo]

I agree that the US did not need to drop the bomb on Japan and their 'formal' reasons were not the actual real reason it was done. It is America that opened that can of worms and the world of geopolitics was changed from that day on.

So you would rather have them do an invasion of the Japanese Islands one by one instead - the cost in lives then would have been pretty significant both military and civilian.

The Japanese were not folk known for surrendering and like in Germany the Civilian folk would have been enlisted to fight as well - The Germans had the Volkssturm - 12 to 70 year old's plus

It took almost a year to defeat the Germans and they were under attack from 2 sides - From the Normandy landings June 6 1944 and the Soviets from the East - unconditional surrender on May 7 1945 - In the battle for Berlin alone up to 400,000 were killed ( Military ( German and Soviet) and German Civilians).

And an American submarine campaign would not have forced the Japanese to surrender either as I noticed some poster suggested it could.

One would have to also consider what the Soviets would have done if they were involved in any attack on Japan - They would have wanted half of Japan at least and it would have been a disaster having a despot like Stalin ruling those folk like it was for the folk in Eastern Europe who endured all those years of communism.

[eddie]

It is the off season Eddie We must somehow keep this place active in any way we can I have to say Im very disappointed in Paddo Colt who appears to have thrown his toys out of the cot and is no longer contributing to his wonderful poetry thread as it has not gone in the trajectory of the manner he had hoped

We've always got the music thread.
A song with good lyrics is better than the average poem anyway.

[mightyrooster]

So you would rather have them do an invasion of the Japanese Islands one by one instead - the cost in lives then would have been pretty significant both military and civilian.

The Japanese were not folk known for surrendering and like in Germany the Civilian folk would have been enlisted to fight as well - The Germans had the Volkssturm - 12 to 70 year old's plus

It took almost a year to defeat the Germans and they were under attack from 2 sides - From the Normandy landings June 6 1944 and the Soviets from the East - unconditional surrender on May 7 1945 - In the battle for Berlin alone up to 400,000 were killed ( Military ( German and Soviet) and German Civilians).

And an American submarine campaign would not have forced the Japanese to surrender either as I noticed some poster suggested it could.

One would have to also consider what the Soviets would have done if they were involved in any attack on Japan - They would have wanted half of Japan at least and it would have been a disaster having a despot like Stalin ruling those folk like it was for the folk in Eastern Europe who endured all those years of communism.

Sorry Salvo, I've never been able to get my head around dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians and children.

[Andrew Walker]

Sorry Salvo, I've never been able to get my head around dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians and children.

Nor once but twice.

[King Salvo]

Nor once but twice.

Justified in the lives that it spared compared to the lives lost under an island by island invasion of Japan who after all started it - Pearl Harbour ring a bell - Germans started it as well in invading Poland

Of course anti USA folk have a different view- prefer the soviet way I assume

In a final lie after his death, German radio reported that Hitler had fallen in battle. When the city was taken seventy five years ago on May 2,1945, over 300,000 Berliners and 80,000 Red Army soldiers lay dead amongst the ruins.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/wa...%20the%20ruins.

[King Salvo]

Sorry Salvo, I've never been able to get my head around dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians and children.

You would rather millions killed instead in an island by island invasion of Japan just as long as they didn't drop the bomb