Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[mightyrooster]

You would rather millions killed instead in an island by island invasion of Japan just as long as they didn't drop the bomb

No need for the sarcasm emoji Salvo. I would prefer peace and no wars full stop. The atomic bomb killed many more for decades to come, not just those who were there at the time.

The answer to whether the bomb was the correct choice is not black and white. There are pros and cons on both sides.

[Random Rooster]

Sorry Salvo, I've never been able to get my head around dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians and children.

I'm not for dropping bombs on anybody, anywhere. However every country has the right to defend itself if attacked- and that includes replying with a deterrent.

Japan's surprise attack on Pearl Harbour was a screw up politically, morally and most importantly strategically. It happened at a time when they were both countries were at peace- and in fact the overwhelming majority of Americans did not want to enter the war. After Pearl Harbour that sentiment amongst the American public had completely changed. The goal was to make Japan surrender and end the war. Dropping the nuclear bomb achieved this without having 1 American come home in a body bag. The 200,000 killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been chicken feed if the Americans attacked in any other form. Its worth noting these events happened only 80 years ago and as it stands today the USA & Japan are the closest of allies.

Putin being able to annex Crimea just gave him the green light to take more.....not unlike Hitlers Nazi Germany move into Poland. Men, power and ego are never a good mix. Women make better world leaders!

So here is where i got to concede some credit to Paddo- there a numerous events involving the USA meddling directly and indirectly in other countries business-all for their own good. The hypocrisy of the USA when they say that Putin should be tried for war crimes.....yet George W Bush shouldn't?

No wonder Iran has nuclear weapons- they saw what happened to their neighbours who weren't nuked up. It seems that nuclear weapons are the only thing that deters the worlds biggest military countries. I bet Ukraine regret dismantling their nuclear capability.

[mightyrooster]

I'm not for dropping bombs on anybody, anywhere. However every country has the right to defend itself if attacked- and that includes replying with a deterrent.

Japan's surprise attack on Pearl Harbour was a screw up politically, morally and most importantly strategically. It happened at a time when they were both countries were at peace- and in fact the overwhelming majority of Americans did not want to enter the war. After Pearl Harbour that sentiment amongst the American public had completely changed. The goal was to make Japan surrender and end the war. Dropping the nuclear bomb achieved this without having 1 American come home in a body bag. The 200,000 killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been chicken feed if the Americans attacked in any other form. Its worth noting these events happened only 80 years ago and as it stands today the USA & Japan are the closest of allies.

Putin being able to annex Crimea just gave him the green light to take more.....not unlike Hitlers Nazi Germany move into Poland. Men, power and ego are never a good mix. Women make better world leaders!

So here is where i got to concede some credit to Paddo- there a numerous events involving the USA meddling directly and indirectly in other countries business-all for their own good. The hypocrisy of the USA when they say that Putin should be tried for war crimes.....yet George W Bush shouldn't?

No wonder Iran has nuclear weapons- they saw what happened to their neighbours who weren't nuked up. It seems that nuclear weapons are the only thing that deters the worlds biggest military countries. I bet Ukraine regret dismantling their nuclear capability.

As I said it was a complex situation, pros and cons on both sides of the argument. I understand what happened in Pearl Harbour and I understand why the US thought, and still believe it was the best option. But using the atomic bomb changed everything and saw the world enter a whole new level of darkness, a new chapter in what humankind was capable of. I guess I’m looking at it from a socio / psychological perspective rather than purely military.

[Insider]

.A few months before Hiroshima and Nagasaki they firebombed Tokyo wiping out half the city and killing well over 100 000, killing more than the atomic attacks combined. Without the Atomic bombs these sort of attacks would have gone on and on, eventually killing millions.,and would have cost plenty of allied lives along the way.Instead punch punch and it was all over. It was just lucky the Nazis and Japs never developed it first because they wouldnt have hesitated in using it.

[Random Rooster]

As I said it was a complex situation, pros and cons on both sides of the argument. I understand what happened in Pearl Harbour and I understand why the US thought, and still believe it was the best option. But using the atomic bomb changed everything and saw the world enter a whole new level of darkness, a new chapter in what humankind was capable of. I guess I’m looking at it from a socio / psychological perspective rather than purely military.

Yes i hears ya and get where you're coming from.

John Lennon is always going to be right "Give peace a chance"

[Andrew Walker]

I even added a new poem to the poetry thread but it has been ignored ever since. Maybe I am to blame lol!

I think it was my talent for limericks that PC did not have that drove him away. That snd had small matter of his plagiarism in that thread. He should realise he is forgiven as it is not like he dropped two nuclear bombs on innocent civilians

[ism22]

In other news, Russia has unilaterally invaded Ukraine for the purpose of conquest.

Our friend asserting the USA's somehow the 'bad guy' in this conflict has no legs to stand on. We can debate the US' (COMPLETELY UNRELATED) usage of superior weapons in other conflicts over and over. None of this changes what Russia's doing today.

Honestly, such arguments are like saying that a DV victim and their friend are responsible for a violent attack because they stood up to the attacker and talked behind their back. I mean sure this might provoked an even more extreme outburst, but that doesn't mean they shoulda just shut up, continued to live in fear of the next attack (which woulda happened anyway - just a matter of time) and isolate their friend because the attacker doesn't like the said friend.

The above is EXACTLY Vlad's tactic. Try to invalidate the free, democratic world's ability to have diplomatic relations with countries so that they can continue to be violent/manipulative. Then when the victim talks back to them and says 'you're an arsehole, I'm leaving you'... chuck a massive tanty and bomb the cr@p outta them because your more subtle/nuanced 'influence' is no longer working.

[mightyrooster]

In other news, Russia has unilaterally invaded Ukraine for the purpose of conquest.

Our friend asserting the USA's somehow the 'bad guy' in this conflict has no legs to stand on. We can debate the US' (COMPLETELY UNRELATED) usage of superior weapons in other conflicts over and over. None of this changes what Russia's doing today.

Honestly, such arguments are like saying that a DV victim and their friend are responsible for a violent attack because they stood up to the attacker and talked behind their back. I mean sure this might provoked an even more extreme outburst, but that doesn't mean they shoulda just shut up, continued to live in fear of the next attack (which woulda happened anyway - just a matter of time) and isolate their friend because the attacker doesn't like the said friend.

The above is EXACTLY Vlad's tactic. Try to invalidate the free, democratic world's ability to have diplomatic relations with countries so that they can continue to be violent/manipulative. Then when the victim talks back to them and says 'you're an arsehole, I'm leaving you'... chuck a massive tanty and bomb the cr@p outta them because your more subtle/nuanced 'influence' is no longer working.

Yes the thread went on a bit of a detour there, time to bring it back on topic.

[ism22]

I think it was my talent for limericks that PC did not have that drove him away. That snd had small matter of his plagiarism in that thread. He should realise he is forgiven as it is not like he dropped two nuclear bombs on innocent civilians

There was an old rambler named Paddo
Who loved to debate like a commo
His reasoning obtuse
'Twas far from the truth
But he stuck to his guns backin' Vlado'

[Andrew Walker]

There was an old rambler named Paddo
Who loved to debate like a commo
His reasoning obtuse
'Twas far from the truth
But he stuck to his guns backin' Vlado'

Very good and I think you should copy and paste and add it into the poetry thread as well

[ism22]

Very good and I think you should copy and paste and add it into the poetry thread as well

Hahaah cheers mate, will do

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo: You would rather millions killed instead in an island by island invasion of Japan just as long as they didn't drop the bomb

It was a racist act King and would still be going on had it not been for brave, principled American scientists who gave the science to Soviet Russia in the 50s. We see the same thing with Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East and even with BLM. Spoiler; The US is racist!

Your US sycophancy is becoming a source of wonder. Grew up with Leave it to Beaver and Rawhide did we? All of that American sport is also a worry - most of it - the NFL and the baseball is like watching paint dry.

[Andrew Walker]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n967761][QUOTE=King Salvo: You would rather millions killed instead in an island by island invasion of Japan just as long as they didn't drop the bomb

It was a racist act King and would still be going on had it not been for American operatives who gave the science to Soviet Russia in the 50s. We see the same thing with Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East and even with BLM. Spoiler; The US is racist!

Your US sycophancy is becoming a source of wonder. Grew up with Leave it to Beaver and Rawhide did we? All of that American sport is also a worry - most of it - the NFL and the baseball is like watching paint dry.

[/QUOTE]

LOL Grew up watching Leave It To Beaver and Rawhide hahahahaha. Oh PC you are an absolute classic. Never ever change

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=ism22; Our friend asserting the USA's somehow the 'bad guy' in this conflict has no legs to stand on. We can debate the US' (COMPLETELY UNRELATED) usage of superior weapons in other conflicts over and over. None of this changes what Russia's doing today.

Honestly, such arguments are like saying that a DV victim and their friend are responsible for a violent attack because they stood up to the attacker and talked behind their back. I mean sure this might provoked an even more extreme outburst, but that doesn't mean they shoulda just shut up, continued to live in fear of the next attack (which woulda happened anyway - just a matter of time) and isolate their friend because the attacker doesn't like the said friend.

The above is EXACTLY Vlad's tactic. Try to invalidate the free, democratic world's ability to have diplomatic relations with countries so that they can continue to be violent/manipulative. Then when the victim talks back to them and says 'you're an arsehole, I'm leaving you'... chuck a massive tanty and bomb the cr@p outta them because your more subtle/nuanced 'influence' is no longer working.

Say wha...? Jeez what is this? The craft beer talkin'?

"The free, democratic world"? Domestic violence? Sheesh,,,,you gotta get a grip man you're becoming the cliche king (maybe that's Salvo). The "free world" really? I thought that term had died with the Cold War. Tell it to the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq. The US is a racist, murderous tyranny, continuously at war since its inception. "Free world"....you dope.

[Random Rooster]

Always with the ad hominem you lot. The lowest debating tactic with the least merit. Address the issues FGS.

"Free world"....you dope.

hhhmmm............