Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Random Rooster]

Why did Vlad not make the G20 summit? Did he have Covid or something?

Would have been good to at least open the lines of communication like Biden & Xi have. Yes, Biden said a lot of major issues were far from resolved after their 3 hour meeting....but at least they are talking about the issues of the future.

More importantly for Australia Albo meets with Xi next. We need to keep all our Asian neighbours on side but its China who is by far our biggest export trading partner. Don't stuff it up Albo!

[ism22]

Why did Vlad not make the G20 summit? Did he have Covid or something?

Would have been good to at least open the lines of communication like Biden & Xi have. Yes, Biden said a lot of major issues were far from resolved after their 3 hour meeting....but at least they are talking about the issues of the future.

More importantly for Australia Albo meets with Xi next. We need to keep all our Asian neighbours on side but its China who is by far our biggest export trading partner. Don't stuff it up Albo!

Fair observation. IMO Vlad could find himself pretty isolated if Biden and Albo start developing better relationships with China.

As noted, I don't want there to be wars or tension. Whereas old mate's happy to see Russia invading Ukraine coz he can then ramble on about how this is (supposedly) a sign that 'the west' is pushing Ukraine into conflict rather than staying out of 'Russian affairs' and letting it 'peacefully' get taken over instead.

IMO Russia and China will always be dense and overly aggressive to deal with in a geopolitical sense. Maintaining a functional relationship with them requires finding a sweet spot where we're not just getting pushed over by their tactics, but equally aren't just having doing stupid stuff with Dubbya / the Daaaanld.

[Random Rooster]

Fair observation. IMO Vlad could find himself pretty isolated if Biden and Albo start developing better relationships with China.

As noted, I don't want there to be wars or tension. Whereas old mate's happy to see Russia invading Ukraine coz he can then ramble on about how this is (supposedly) a sign that 'the west' is pushing Ukraine into conflict rather than staying out of 'Russian affairs' and letting it 'peacefully' get taken over instead.

IMO Russia and China will always be dense and overly aggressive to deal with in a geopolitical sense. Maintaining a functional relationship with them requires finding a sweet spot where we're not just getting pushed over by their tactics, but equally aren't just having doing stupid stuff with Dubbya / the Daaaanld.

China has played a very big part in making Australia a wealthy a country. Anything less than a positive relationship will disadvantage us more than them. Our previous government, spurred on by Paddos mates the USA, tried to flex their muscles with the Chinese and it only had negative effects. Our beef and barley exporters copped the brunt of it.

I'm not saying we are going to hold hands with them and skip because there are always going to to points whereby China's best interests are going to conflict with ours- maybe Taiwan will be one of those points.
Interestingly China's role in the outbreak of Covid 19 wasn't on the agenda. I think we have rightly moved on from that and decided working with Xi is more productive in rebuilding our economy than poking him over previous events.

Putin not showing, well who i guess cares......maybe the Europeans but as an Australian i just want is all our neighbouring countries having a positive working relationship with us. Putin can go jump

[King Salvo]

Why did Vlad not make the G20 summit? Did he have Covid or something?

Would have been good to at least open the lines of communication like Biden & Xi have. Yes, Biden said a lot of major issues were far from resolved after their 3 hour meeting....but at least they are talking about the issues of the future.

More importantly for Australia Albo meets with Xi next. We need to keep all our Asian neighbours on side but its China who is by far our biggest export trading partner. Don't stuff it up Albo!

Little Legs Putin's Plane like some of his rockets landed in a different country so he missed the summit . - Oh and by mistake

[ism22]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-...roup/101677602

LOL@Russian propaganda

[ism22]

Like I say Izzy, the lurid claims that you echo all come from the MSM (aka US propaganda). Just because something is said over and over again doesn't make it true. Unless I can find solid unbiased evidence I don't believe anything that comes out of the MSM, there've been too many egregious lies. The Gulf of Tonkin "incident" which began the war in Vietnam was a US fabrication which led to an illegal invasion and you talk about me ignoring inconvenient "truths".

More like...

- Your goto source of info is JM.com (which is a blog / opinions site, not a news site). You don't read any mainstream takes (of which there are many - often conflicting) and instead you rely on snippets that have been picked out by JM.com

- JM.com's purpose is to try and cherry-pick factual flaws in mainstream reporting and provide a 'unique' angle on everything (which just so happens to be a pro-Russia/Saudi Arabia/China angle). This isn't research or reporting to a higher order. It's lazy as fark, indoctrinated garbage.

- You'll clutch onto any 'lies' that JM.com identifies (without doing your own research) and over-emphasis them as 'proof' that nothing else the 'MSM' (aka anybody but JM.com) says can be trusted. Typically these 'lies' are obscure, technical details about historic wars (ones most aren't gonna know off the top of their heads) that are used to hijack discussions where somebody has a much simpler, more defensible stance such as 'it's illegal and immoral for Russia to invade Ukraine'.

- You're not a Vietnam (or Asian geopolitics) expert. As noted... my father-in-law is a member of the Vietnamese communist party, lived through the Vietnam war and loves his country. However, he doesn't have anti-western takes on everything like you do. Your assumptions about countries you've never bothered to visit or meet people from are jaded and inaccurate.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Here you go again with your father in law rubbish. Henry Kissinger s still an accused War Criminal over the continued saturation bombing of Hanoi during the 70s PEACE deliberations and would face the ICJ if the US was willing to be subject to its authority. Some patriot that f-i-l fella. What, he admires the US?
* Murdoch has a near monopoly on news dissemination in Oz and has a proven track record of war mongering. We don't have a pluralistic media (unless you mean the China baiting SMH) nor a Bill Of Rights.
* For the last time, johnmenadue.com is a current affairs forum. Its contributors (including JM) are prominent ex public servants of the highest rank, former pollies, academics, diplomats and real journalists (like most MSM stenographers my old student wouldn't get a look in). I cite Menadue only because its content mostly has authority. Like all Right wingers your MO is blanket denigration without any corroboration.
* Like Pearl Harbour and 9/11, the illegal war in Ukraine is the end point of unremitting provocation by NATO (the US) and then the feigned indignation, the "Hey look at they've done!!". It has a lot to do, also, with the US by-passing the UN because it sees itself as "exceptional".
* Questioning references to "obscure historic foreign wars" is just a keyboard away. Try it!.

[ism22]

Here you go again with your father in law rubbish.

1. I don't think having a blood connection to a dude from central Vietnam who's lived through the Vietnam war, works for the Vietnamese Communist Party and has formed his own opinions on geopolitics is rubbish. It's called lived experience, mate. Something which you lack in this regard as you're happy to parrot Vlad's propaganda, but lack the spine to get out and meet people with 1st hand experience.

2. Murdoch is not an arm of an authoritarian government, he INFLUENCES the government by being a big player (rather than vice versa). That said, I'd love to hear what influence Murdoch has over ABC, The Guardian, The Monthly and the like (heck and foreign news outlets too such as Huff Post). Russia does not enjoy freedom of press at all and messaging from its government is absolute. If somebody ran an anti-Vlad blog that called his invasion of Ukraine illegal and immoral, they'd be locked up and tortured (with their blog shut down). Not so in Australia... JM.com exists and can say whatever the fark it likes (including cash for comment BS from the CCP / Vlad / Sultan bin Abdulaziz.

3. Part of the joy of democracy is that people are ALLOWED to critically analyse such opinion pieces, pick them apart and ignore them as being obvious propaganda from dictatorships (largely from unverifiable ex-'ambassadors' who have defected to Russia / Saudi Arabia and 'visiting professors' of Chinese universities who are not recognised as prominent academics well... anywhere). These people are allowed to exist and publish absolute cr@p over here - the fact I'm smart enough to know that it's BS doesn't mean I'm a News Ltd wandering sheep. Heck - 99.99% of Murdoch's junk is behind a paywall anyway! The only News Ltd cr@p I consume is by necessity as they sponsor the footy. Hint: just like the gambling ads, I ignore most of their news/commentary.

[King Salvo]

Here you go again with your father in law rubbish. Henry Kissinger s still an accused War Criminal over the continued saturation bombing of Hanoi during the 70s PEACE deliberations and would face the ICJ if the US was willing to be subject to its authority. Some patriot that f-i-l fella. What, he admires the US?
* Murdoch has a near monopoly on news dissemination in Oz and has a proven track record of war mongering. We don't have a pluralistic media (unless you mean the China baiting SMH) nor a Bill Of Rights.
* For the last time, johnmenadue.com is a current affairs forum. Its contributors (including JM) are prominent ex public servants of the highest rank, former pollies, academics, diplomats and real journalists (like most MSM stenographers my old student wouldn't get a look in). I cite Menadue only because its content mostly has authority. Like all Right wingers your MO is blanket denigration without any corroboration.
* Like Pearl Harbour and 9/11, the illegal war in Ukraine is the end point of unremitting provocation by NATO (the US) and then the feigned indignation, the "Hey look at they've done!!". It has a lot to do, also, with the US by-passing the UN because it sees itself as "exceptional".
* Questioning references to "obscure historic foreign wars" is just a keyboard away. Try it!.

NATO was formed in 1949 to counter Soviet Union aggression and the spread of communism as no doubt the Soviet Union would have continued westward taking over other countries if NATO didn't exist. - Ditto China who were more than assisting the Communists in North Korea

A couple of questions for you to ponder

If the Soviet Union was so good how come the citizens of those countries under the control of Moscow all vote on mass to leave the Soviet Union and become independent countries though?

Why did the Soviet Union/China for instance have so many gulags and re-education concentration camps though not withstanding the mass executions and forced famines and also not allow citizens to travel without government permission and approval?

Why was there a blockade of Berlin and what was your beloved Comrade Marshal Stalin's reasoning for this?

Why was the Berlin Wall Built?

Are Independent countries free to join any organisation they so wish?

How do you rate Joseph Stalin , Mao Zedong , Kim II-Sun . Fidel Castrol. Ho Chi Minh as leaders from 1 to 5?

[ism22]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-...able/101692684

All lies from the 'MSM' I presume.

There's no ethnic Russian ethnic group in Australia that protests against the Kremlin. They're just making up lies about Russia's presence in Australia. Further... there's no chance they'd face criminal sanctions in Russia for protesting against Vlad in Australia. Surely that's not legal as they're not even in Russia when committing the crime of criticising its government.

Further, I doubt that Russia has a list of banned extremists that includes 'pro-democracy Russian groups in countries such as the US, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany and Latvia.' Surely these people are actually nazis and terrorists :P

I'll have to go to JM.com and see if one of their 'experts' on Russia has heard about this and has an opinion about this group. Can't see them covering it for some reason though. This is totally not selective bias on their behalf by the way. It's the 'MSM' that elicits selective bias in telling this story rather than preaching about how amazing Russia is, how harmonious/kind their offer to provide governance & prosperity for Ukraine is and how the evil nazis of Ukraine have ungraciously rejected this peaceful war due to their US ties so now totally deserve to be executed.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Beginning with Howard, the conservative right wing of the Libs have managed a real job on the ABC which is now, pretty much, a gaggle of stenographers with ex News Corp people in key positions - Stan Grant, self styled leader of the anti China bunch is a prominent fixture and frequent guest commentators include the rabid egoist Peter Hartcher (from the Costello led SMH) and that other ratbag Greg Sheridan who still thinks that last week's Poland incident was a Russian attack. I include the ABC in the right wing MSM these days.

Enough of conflating the Ukraine situation with anti Communism already. It has nothing to do with Communism nor is Russia Communist state. Those Cold War propaganda points that both of you persist with are becoming tedious and most tedious of all is the implication that the US is a benign, altruistic white knight. What, you think that it invaded Russia in 1919 because it had the foresight that Communism was an "evil"? Anti Communism is/was all about its potential threat to Capitalism. Historically, the US via the CIA has not allowed any Communist/Socialist state to succeed of fail on its own merits.

The main message of the neocons who determine US foreign policy is that the US must predominate in military power in every region of the world and must confront rising regional powers that could someday challenge US global or regional dominance, most importantly Russia and China. For this purpose, US military force should be pre-positioned in hundreds of military bases around the world and the US should be prepared to lead wars of choice as necessary. The United Nations is to be used by the US only when useful for US purposes.

[eddie]

. I include the ABC in the right wing MSM these days.

Bloody hell.................The ABC is so far left it can't be trusted.

[Andrew Walker]

Bloody hell.................The ABC is so far left it can't be trusted.

Not these days Eddie

PS How are you doing mate ?

[eddie]

Not these days Eddie

PS How are you doing mate ?

Maybe I might stand corrected on that one because it's been quite a few years since I've watched the ABC.

I am ok thank you...............some days are a real battle, but I'm sure that's true for a lot of us. I shall go for a swim this afternoon
Hope you are well yourself?

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=eddie; I am ok thank you...............some days are a real battle, but[B] I'm sure that's true for a lot of us. [/B]

Not so many as you might think Eddie. These times are a little like the Great Depression scenario with the unskilled and those on fixed incomes doing it very tough while a large section keep on getting richer than ever.
In the 90s I attended a debate in the library of my daughter's very expensive private school where the walls were hung with photographs of the gels during the Depression. Among them were images of groups departing on tourist cruises, a luxury industry that boomed in the period. At the same time both my father and mother had to leave school at 13 to augment their family incomes. So much for "We're all Aussies and all in it together". Mugs is what we are/were.