Minus Russian propaganda, what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[Andrew Walker]

Maybe I might stand corrected on that one because it's been quite a few years since I've watched the ABC.

I am ok thank you...............some days are a real battle, but I'm sure that's true for a lot of us. I shall go for a swim this afternoon
Hope you are well yourself?

Good to hear you are ok All good here I’m at the beach as I type this.

Enjoy your swim this afternoon

[Andrew Walker]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n970758]

I'm sure that's true for a lot of us. [/B]

Not so many as you might think Eddie. These times are a little like the Great Depression scenario with the unskilled and those on fixed incomes doing it very tough while a large section keep on getting richer than ever.
In the 90s I attended a debate in the library of my daughter's very expensive private school where the walls were hung with photographs of the gels during the Depression. Among them were images of groups departing on tourist cruises, a luxury industry that boomed in the period. At the same time both my father and mother had to leave school at 13 to augment their family incomes. So much for "We're all Aussies and all in it together". Mugs is what we are/were.

You have well and truly missed what Eddie was replying to

[Paddo Colt 61]

If it regarded his health then I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that he was referring to life on Welfare support which is grim for most.

[King Salvo]

Beginning with Howard, the conservative right wing of the Libs have managed a real job on the ABC which is now, pretty much, a gaggle of stenographers with ex News Corp people in key positions - Stan Grant, self styled leader of the anti China bunch is a prominent fixture and frequent guest commentators include the rabid egoist Peter Hartcher (from the Costello led SMH) and that other ratbag Greg Sheridan who still thinks that last week's Poland incident was a Russian attack. I include the ABC in the right wing MSM these days.

Enough of conflating the Ukraine situation with anti Communism already. It has nothing to do with Communism nor is Russia Communist state. Those Cold War propaganda points that both of you persist with are becoming tedious and most tedious of all is the implication that the US is a benign, altruistic white knight. What, you think that it invaded Russia in 1919 because it had the foresight that Communism was an "evil"? Anti Communism is/was all about its potential threat to Capitalism. Historically, the US via the CIA has not allowed any Communist/Socialist state to succeed of fail on its own merits.

The main message of the neocons who determine US foreign policy is that the US must predominate in military power in every region of the world and must confront rising regional powers that could someday challenge US global or regional dominance, most importantly Russia and China. For this purpose, US military force should be pre-positioned in hundreds of military bases around the world and the US should be prepared to lead wars of choice as necessary. The United Nations is to be used by the US only when useful for US purposes.

The problem Comrade Paddo is that you sprout how good these communist regimes where and are and how bad the US led capitalist running dogs West is but fail to respond to more than reasonable questions about the history of communist regimes, their leaders and communism in general.

China is still communist and well the Russian Federation still have that communist mind set as after all their leaders were Soviet Union born and bread and old little legs Putin was a KGB Colonel and hankers for a return of the Soviet Union - Putin said the collapse of the Soviet Union was " the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

It is rubbish to suggest that the US invaded Russia in 1919- There was a genuine reason for the allies to send troops into Russia when the Russians withdraw from the War

After the revolutionist leader Vladimir Lenin and his Bolsheviks seized power in Russia in 1917 with the promise of "Peace, Land, and Bread," the country formally withdrew from World War I. Once Russian guns fell silent, Germany and its allies were able to redeploy hundreds of thousands of soldiers from their Eastern Front and hurl them at the exhausted Allied forces in France and Belgium.

The United States took a limited role in the international force that intervened in the Russian Civil War. The purpose of the intervention was to ensure that Russian arms did not fall into German hands and to provide the means for trapped Allied troops to escape.

On December 15 1917, the Russians came to a peace agreement with the Central Powers. Many of the Allies who feared the Bolshevik take over of Russian now had a reason to intervene. The stated purpose was to protect the large stock of supplies that the allies had been shipping Russia via Siberia. While many of the allies intervened directly with the White Russians (those fighting the communists), President Wilson agreed to send US troops for two purposes only, to protect the arms shipped to Vladivostok and to rescue a force of 40,000 Czech troops who were trapped in Siberia.

The first member of the American Expeditionary Force, Siberia arrived on August 15th, 1918. Altogether 7,950 troops became parts of the force. The soldiers mostly performed guard duty, protecting the railroad. The mission commander General William S Graves refused to be drawn into battles with Soviet forces. The last Americans left Vladivostok on April 1, 1920. 189 American soldiers died during their time in the area.

At the same time, a separate mission named American Expeditionary Force, North Russia (AEF in North Russia) (also known as the Polar Bear Expedition) was sent to Arkhangelsk. 5,000 American troops participated in that force. The soldiers of the Polar Bear Expedition engaged in fighting with the Soviets, losing 110 men in battle. By August 1919 the last US troop withdrew from the area. A total of 229 American soldiers died in the Soviet Union, on the side of the White Russians.

[Paddo Colt 61]

* Don't know what to make of the first part. Most of the history is essentially correct but are you saying that they had no right to quit a Capitalist trade war after the aristocracy had failed so miserably with millions of Russian casualties? There were mutinies on the Western Front as well. I thought that you and Izzy were all for national sovereignty.

* The simple fact is that the US and others, Britain in particular, (some Australian working class duffer won the VC killing often unarmed Russian defenders) intervened on the side of those wanting to restore the aristocracy.

* It's YOUR (Western) history of Communist regimes. From the get go the Soviets weren't left alone to the point where, 20 years later, Hitler was encouraged to expand East (See AJP Taylor's History of the Second World War.) Later, devastated by the Germans, they were forced into an arms race which was, eventually, unsustainable. Facing reality Gorby proposed a final settlement buoyed by all sorts of US assurances. All of them were ratted on. It's the same story - infiltrate, antagonise, interfere, goad, proxy war and then - "Hey look at this rabid lot, they're aggressive!"

* The Russian Communist Party is in opposition to Putin. He ain't seeking membership last I heard.

* The United States took a limited role in the international force that intervened in the Russian Civil War. The purpose of the intervention was to ensure that Russian arms did not fall into German hands and to provide the means for trapped Allied troops to escape. America the good again? Russiatook a limited role in the recent intervention in Ukraine.The purpose of the intervention was to ensure that NATO did not militarise Ukraine as was promised.

* Finally, give us a break with the American hagiography. Its global role is obvious to all but the laziest thinkers. By contrast, the Chinese system has been outrageously successful by any measure and is approved by 96% of its population according to the US Brookings Institute. The minimum wage there is soon to overtake that earned by Wallmart working poor - who woulda thought? The US is concerned for the "freedom" of ordinary folk? Tell that to the BLM people or to the peasants of South America. It's a nation built on human slavery constituted after violent revolution by slave owners who hated paying tax. Its proletariat has finally woken up to the fact that its elitist government doesn't represent them and that the paradigm won't change short of revolution. The disaster for all of us is that they're led by the fascist Right.

[eddie]

If it regarded his health then I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that he was referring to life on Welfare support which is grim for most.

Andy's quite right in that I was referring to health issues, but you make a good point none the less.
For nearly two decades I lived on property in the country, but after being on a pension I could no longer afford it. Moving further north has dramatically reduced the mortgage, and living in the centre of town I can walk everywhere and no longer have the expense of owning a car.
There are other small benefits like today. I just got back from the pool and it cost me the grand sum of $1.60

[Andrew Walker]

Andy's quite right in that I was referring to health issues, but you make a good point none the less.
For nearly two decades I lived on property in the country, but after being on a pension I could no longer afford it. Moving further north has dramatically reduced the mortgage, and living in the centre of town I can walk everywhere and no longer have the expense of owning a car.
There are other small benefits like today. I just got back from the pool and it cost me the grand sum of $1.60

Oh Eddie I am so glad to hear you got out for your swim, Should you continue all that walking and no car will give you an excellent social credit score in the future

[ism22]

The ABC is far-right and run by News Ltd...

Honestly, JM.com is about as far right as it gets. You're not a leftie, mate.

Lefties are off campaigning to protect the environment, increase welfare payments, liberalise gay marriage, increase government transparency/accountability...etc.

Wheres, your model is that Russia and China should be teaching us a 'different perspective'. I'm all for freedom of the press, so read all the JN.com you like. However, people aren't stupid for possessing the skills to sift through how biased such angles are and ignore them. Most people are smart enough to sift through such blatant bias.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Are they? Got news for you my friend, 85% got no interest whatsoever in politics/government. Whingeing is their usual go.

And those to whom you refer are the dud Left. Identity politics is the bane of the Left, almost like a Right Wing derailment exercise. I exclude the environment and Welfare in saying that. I should also add that government transparency is very much a TEAL concern as well as one for the Left.

China wants to lead global prosperity and the enthusiasm for Belt and Road in Central Asia suggests that developing nations agree. Even our Pacific neighbours see it as far more attractive than Western loans tied to neocon "reforms". Of course the US, and you no doubt, see an evil intent.

[King Salvo]

* Don't know what to make of the first part. Most of the history is essentially correct but are you saying that they had no right to quit a Capitalist trade war after the aristocracy had failed so miserably with millions of Russian casualties? There were mutinies on the Western Front as well. I thought that you and Izzy were all for national sovereignty.

* The simple fact is that the US and others, Britain in particular, (some Australian working class duffer won the VC killing often unarmed Russian defenders) intervened on the side of those wanting to restore the aristocracy.

* It's YOUR (Western) history of Communist regimes. From the get go the Soviets weren't left alone to the point where, 20 years later, Hitler was encouraged to expand East (See AJP Taylor's History of the Second World War.) Later, devastated by the Germans, they were forced into an arms race which was, eventually, unsustainable. Facing reality Gorby proposed a final settlement buoyed by all sorts of US assurances. All of them were ratted on. It's the same story - infiltrate, antagonise, interfere, goad, proxy war and then - "Hey look at this rabid lot, they're aggressive!"

* The Russian Communist Party is in opposition to Putin. He ain't seeking membership last I heard.

* The United States took a limited role in the international force that intervened in the Russian Civil War. The purpose of the intervention was to ensure that Russian arms did not fall into German hands and to provide the means for trapped Allied troops to escape. America the good again? Russiatook a limited role in the recent intervention in Ukraine.The purpose of the intervention was to ensure that NATO did not militarise Ukraine as was promised.

* Finally, give us a break with the American hagiography. Its global role is obvious to all but the laziest thinkers. By contrast, the Chinese system has been outrageously successful by any measure and is approved by 96% of its population according to the US Brookings Institute. The minimum wage there is soon to overtake that earned by Wallmart working poor - who woulda thought? The US is concerned for the "freedom" of ordinary folk? Tell that to the BLM people or to the peasants of South America. It's a nation built on human slavery constituted after violent revolution by slave owners who hated paying tax. Its proletariat has finally woken up to the fact that its elitist government doesn't represent them and that the paradigm won't change short of revolution. The disaster for all of us is that they're led by the fascist Right.

You can see why and how you get confused especially as now you are quoting another alleged author in AJP Taylor who claimed that " Hitler always wanted to avoid war, although he was ready to threaten it in order to get his way, and that he did not really want territorial expansion, but only a zone of friendly satellite states in Eastern Europe"

https://www.commentary.org/articles/...-a-j-p-taylor/

Under Hitlers Lebensraum (Living space ) plan for Eastern Europe there would be small towns/cities built in these occupied countries which would be populated by Germanic Colonists - 1/3 of the citizens of these occupied countries would be retained to work as slaves for the Germanic Colonists/ 1/3 would be executed and 1/3 would be deported to concentration camps.

Who was encouraging Hitler to expand East though - mmm let me guess who you will say - The US and the West

The allies were quite right to oppose the Bolshi's as look at misery that was inflicted on 100's of millions/Billions of folk under that totalitarian and pure evil system - mass executions/mass starvation/mass deportations and mass imprisonment in the countless gulags throughout your beloved USSR

Ah yes Khrushchev conveniently denounces Stalin but he and all the others were all complicit and with the exception of Beria all got away with it - It was self preservation in executing Beria though - Execute him first before he organisers their executions

Russia took a limited role in the "recent intervention" in Ukraine you say ?? - mmm what were they intervening into though - the right of a independent nation to determine their own future and join any organisation they wish.

Old Little legs Putin was a member of the communist party in the USSR days though and still has the USSR Mindset and to say the Commo's are in opposition is fanciful as none of their leaders/members etc disappear or are jailed on trumped up charges.

96% of Chinese approve of their system - mmm the Population of China is 1.4 billion for starters so that figure is very much questionable to say the least.

Bit like the elections in the USSR where candidates would receive 100% or 99. something of the vote - mmm there was only one candidate in these regional /oblast elections that people could vote for.

Just a rough guess though one would say another of your favourite regime leaders in Kim Jong-un would have 100% approval rating for both he and his System so should we have this system instead ?

You are not very good on facts one has to say - 2 Australian VC recipients and none killed as you posted unarmed Bolshevik Defenders

Corporal Arthur Percy Sullivan V.C.


Sullivan was 22 years old, and a Corporal in the 45th Battalion during the North Russia Relief Force when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross.

On 10 August 1919, at Sheika River, North Russia, the platoon to which Corporal Sullivan belonged, after fighting a rearguard covering action, had to cross the river by means of a narrow plank, and during the passage an officer and three men fell into a deep swamp.

Without hesitation, Corporal Sullivan, under intense fire, jumped into the river and rescued all four, bringing them out singly. But for this gallant action, the men would undoubtedly have drowned, as all ranks were exhausted and the enemy was less than 100 yards away.


Sergeant Samuel George Pearse V.C, MM (Military Medal)

Samuel George Pearse, VC, MM (16 July 1897 – 29 August 1919) was an Australia Recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

Serving in the Australian Imperial Forces during the First World War, he saw action during the final weeks of the Gallipoli Campaign in 1915 and later on the Western Front from 1916 to 1918.

Following the Armistice he fought as part of the North Russia Relief Force with the British Army during the North Russia Campaign in 1919.

He was killed after charging a machine gun post during an action at Emtsa , in North Russia, for which he was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=eddie; Andy's quite right in that I was referring to health issues, but you make a good point none the less.
For nearly two decades I lived on property in the country, but after being on a pension I could no longer afford it. Moving further north has dramatically reduced the mortgage, and living in the centre of town I can walk everywhere and no longer have the expense of owning a car.
There are other small benefits like today. I just got back from the pool and it cost me the grand sum of $1.60.

I've always thought that the ACT is the very best option if you want/have to live regionally, it has everything and probably more than the big city has.

I often went to relations in Braddon during school hols in the 50s (just 25 years or so after it had been a sheep run). I loved it and being just a couple of blocks from Civic Centre, Mt. Ainsley and the War museum there was always something to do.

[mightyrooster]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n970776][QUOTE=eddie; Andy's quite right in that I was referring to health issues, but you make a good point none the less.
For nearly two decades I lived on property in the country, but after being on a pension I could no longer afford it. Moving further north has dramatically reduced the mortgage, and living in the centre of town I can walk everywhere and no longer have the expense of owning a car.
There are other small benefits like today. I just got back from the pool and it cost me the grand sum of $1.60.

I've always thought that the ACT is the very best option if you want/have to live regionally, it has everything and probably more than the big city has.

I often went to relations in Braddon during school hols in the 50s (just 25 years or so after it had been a sheep run). I loved it and being just a couple of blocks from Civic Centre, Mt. Ainsley and the War museum there was always something to do.

[/QUOTE]

That’s the reason I love the ACT. I grew up in regional NSW and so Canberra to me is like a big country town but with all the amenities.

[Rooster1908]

[QUOTE=mightyrooster;n970793]

That’s the reason I love the ACT. I grew up in regional NSW and so Canberra to me is like a big country town but with all the amenities.

We are in Brisbane and have been for 7 months. Its like that a big country town and has everything close by. Was hoping to be back on the south coast by now but that hasn't panned out as yet . Waiting for the right property to come up . Worst thing up here is the humidity .Have to get up and walk the dog at 5:30 before the heat sets in . Winter is great but

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=King Salvo;

You can see why and how you get confused especially as now you are quoting another alleged author in AJP Taylor who claimed that " [U]Hitler always wanted to avoid war[/U], although he was ready to threaten it in order to get his way, and that he did not really want territorial expansion, [U]but only a zone of friendly satellite states in Eastern Europe"
https://www.commentary.org/articles/...-a-j-p-taylor/

Commentary is a Jewish right wing periodical closely connected to the Republican Party and the focus of the article is to debunk any suggestion that Hitler didn't bear the sole responsibility for WW2. Importantly the article was published in 1962 at the height of the Cold War so the wider thesis that Hitler was encouraged by the Brits and French to move East (they and Hitler were implacably anti Communist) is studiously avoided. It is the Western rule of the rich paradigm that has always been the nub of anti Communism. Don't worry AJP was widely rejected in the West except in universities. Universities V the Capitalist media, which would you favour? (it's rhetorical King, I'm not asking your preference).

Re the use of the cane in Singapore. My reference was general allusion to how some deal with anti social, tax payer draining misbehaviour. That chewing gum is not a cane-able offence is interesting but pedantic. My "error", however, is pretty much in the same league as adding a possessive apostrophe to "commos".

[ism22]

My "error", however, is pretty much in the same league as adding a possessive apostrophe to "commos".

Mate your 'errors' are now far beyond comprehension at this point.

I finished work at lunch yesterday and have been in bed ever since with a splitting headache and cold chills (fortunately not COVID but I swear it feels worse than when I had COVID back in August).

Can you please just give it a rest for a while? Lay off the green for a few days, drink some water and chill-out.