Best centre to play for the ESDRLFC since 1908

[kakaruk]

As Salvo and others contend, it was a different game back in the day. The spiral pass, for example, first appeared in the late 60s, imported from Union and, other than that, the athleticism of today was just not there as replays of games from the past clearly demonstrate. Brown, Messenger et al might have excelled in the new game who knows but as things are we're pretty much comparing apples and oranges.
Saddler, Harris and Brass were all very good players, the latter the best East's Centre pairing I'd seen until Manu and Trell but on his day Mitchell was the very best of all.

Maybe you a right but having said that What is the reason do you think with spiral passes and all the athleticism, flick passes sports scientists synthetic footballs 6 again etc that nobody for 90 years has scored 38 trys in a season, kicked 15 goals and scored 5 trys in a match, and scored more points on a kangaroo tour than any player in the last century? Surely with all these advantages that the modern game has given the players somebody would have beaten Browns records

[milanja]

Maybe you a right but having said that What is the reason do you think with spiral passes and all the athleticism, flick passes sports scientists synthetic footballs 6 again etc that nobody for 90 years has scored 38 trys in a season, kicked 15 goals and scored 5 trys in a match, and scored more points on a kangaroo tour than any player in the last century? Surely with all these advantages that the modern game has given the players somebody would have beaten Browns records

Thought brandy scored the most points in a single match with 46, in a kangaroos match v France in 1990

[kakaruk]

Thought brandy scored the most points in a single match with 46, in a kangaroos match v France in 1990

you could be right mate i was talking about the entire tour

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=kakaruk; Maybe you a right but having said that What is the reason do you think with spiral passes and all the athleticism, flick passes sports scientists synthetic footballs 6 again etc that nobody for 90 years has scored 38 trys in a season, kicked 15 goals and scored 5 trys in a match, and scored more points on a kangaroo tour than any player in the last century?

My speculation on that again goes to the period in which Brown played and the quality of the game at the time. First his record was set in wartime when the game continued despite the enlistment of hundreds of active and potential players. After the war, the League advertised widely for ex servicemen interested in trialing. An old friend of my family's answered such an advertisement and was graded with Souths despite his unfamiliarity with the game but he was a big unit. That sort of measure suggests a degree of desperation because, for another thing, Junior League was also in its infancy.
Years ago I thought to write a history of the Paddington Colts and the "colourful" characters who had worn the colours over the "years" but then I learned that the Colts, like so many other junior clubs, had been set up in 1949 - some of the officials at the time that I played were probably among the founders - some "history". Prior to that the main gene pool was the (and continues to be) the schools, particularly Catholic working class schools (no doubt because of the sectarianism of the time and Union's Protestant class affiliations).
The 50s marked the high point of popularity for League up to that point and the game has grown in professionalism ever since, TV being a catalyst in its evolution. That evolution includes coaching and all of the other things that you mention which have changed the game far beyond what it was.
I'm not contending that Brown was/is overrated. He was still revered in the early 60s among Easts' supporters but he came out of a different time, one that is almost unrecognisable on reflection. I never saw him and I don't know how he would have coped with Lattrell or Mark Harris.

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Schooner; Im old enough to have seen Ron Saddler John Brass and Mark Harris play. For their era all were great but Mark Harris was the standout He was regularly picked for Australia whereas the other two had briefer international careers.....John Brass was a very skillful player but Harris had speed and was huge. He was bigger than most forwards. That 1975 backline was probably the best ever.

There is a school of thought Schooner that Harris was the force that he was because Brass was inside him (just saying that seems weird given the field formation of today). Both were recruited after the disaster of 1966 Harris on the advice of a spotter in PNG and Brass, a Rugby International (possibly with Dick Thornett the standout converts to League at the time). Ex Sydney High, Brass was a highly intelligent Centre who looked far more like a bank clerk than did Cameron Smith and who had an amazing (at the time) long spiral pass that put Harris, moving at speed, on the outside of his opponent and Mark was quick and physical with a good swerve but not much else by way of footwork. Those two, along with Beetson who was dominant in the middle (where all of the Pigs were located) and often the prime mover in attack, revived the Club's parlous fortunes.

[player 1]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n910340][QUOTE=Schooner; Im old enough to have seen Ron Saddler John Brass and Mark Harris play. For their era all were great but Mark Harris was the standout He was regularly picked for Australia whereas the other two had briefer international careers.....John Brass was a very skillful player but Harris had speed and was huge. He was bigger than most forwards. That 1975 backline was probably the best ever.

There is a school of thought Schooner that Harris was the force that he was because Brass was inside him (just saying that seems weird given the field formation of today). Both were recruited after the disaster of 1966 Harris on the advice of a spotter in PNG and Brass, a Rugby International (possibly with Dick Thornett the standout converts to League at the time). Ex Sydney High, Brass was a highly intelligent Centre who looked far more like a bank clerk than did Cameron Smith and who had an amazing (at the time) long spiral pass that put Harris, moving at speed, on the outside of his opponent and Mark was quick and physical with a good swerve but not much else by way of footwork. Those two, along with Beetson who was dominant in the middle (where all of the Pigs were located) and often the prime mover in attack, revived the Club's parlous fortunes.

[/QUOTE]

Greatly enjoying your posts these days Paddo.

Regarding Harris' footwork, he was also fond of the Maori sidestep.

[Headless Chook]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n910338][QUOTE=kakaruk; Maybe you a right but having said that What is the reason do you think with spiral passes and all the athleticism, flick passes sports scientists synthetic footballs 6 again etc that nobody for 90 years has scored 38 trys in a season, kicked 15 goals and scored 5 trys in a match, and scored more points on a kangaroo tour than any player in the last century?

My speculation on that again goes to the period in which Brown played and the quality of the game at the time. First his record was set in wartime when the game continued despite the enlistment of hundreds of active and potential players. After the war, the League advertised widely for ex servicemen interested in trialing. An old friend of my family's answered such an advertisement and was graded with Souths despite his unfamiliarity with the game but he was a big unit. That sort of measure suggests a degree of desperation because, for another thing, Junior League was also in its infancy.
Years ago I thought to write a history of the Paddington Colts and the "colourful" characters who had worn the colours over the "years" but then I learned that the Colts, like so many other junior clubs, had been set up in 1949 - some of the officials at the time that I played were probably among the founders - some "history". Prior to that the main gene pool was the (and continues to be) the schools, particularly Catholic working class schools (no doubt because of the sectarianism of the time and Union's Protestant class affiliations).
The 50s marked the high point of popularity for League up to that point and the game has grown in professionalism ever since, TV being a catalyst in its evolution. That evolution includes coaching and all of the other things that you mention which have changed the game far beyond what it was.
I'm not contending that Brown was/is overrated. He was still revered in the early 60s among Easts' supporters but he came out of a different time, one that is almost unrecognisable on reflection. I never saw him and I don't know how he would have coped with Lattrell or Mark Harris.[/QUOTE]





Your line about his record being set in war time is wrong

[Paddo Colt 61]

[QUOTE=Headless Chook; Your line about his record being set in war time is wrong.

True HC, and a quick Google search would have put me right on that but my other suggestions re the standard of the talent available back then remains reasonable. My Google did reveal that he went to England in the late 30s having established his records here but was unimpressive there and was paid out after one season. That suggests to me that the standard of play was much higher over there and it goes some way in explaining why England was so dominant in International contests throughout the 50s and 60s and before.
Even in the 60s players had to be resident in a Club's district and that applied to all Rep teams. During my time, a few of my Colt team mates were elevated to rep sides and even graded yet they were not particularly talented and would not get a look in today when the Earth is scoured for prodigies for SG Ball and Matthews sides.
Again, in no way sayin' that Brown is undeserving of his place in the Pantheon but maybe citations for Immortal status should read "outstanding in the position of ....in his time".

[Headless Chook]

[QUOTE=Paddo Colt 61;n910345][QUOTE=Headless Chook; Your line about his record being set in war time is wrong.

True HC, and a quick Google search would have put me right on that but my other suggestions re the standard of the talent available back then remains reasonable. My Google did reveal that he went to England in the late 30s having established his records here but was unimpressive there and was paid out after one season. That suggests to me that the standard of play was much higher over there and it goes some way in explaining why England was so dominant in International contests throughout the 50s and 60s and before.
Even in the 60s players had to be resident in a Club's district and that applied to all Rep teams. During my time, a few of my Colt team mates were elevated to rep sides and even graded yet they were not particularly talented and would not get a look in today when the Earth is scoured for prodigies for SG Ball and Matthews sides.
Again, in no way sayin' that Brown is undeserving of his place in the Pantheon but maybe citations for Immortal status should read "outstanding in the position of ....in his time".

[/QUOTE]

He bought out the final year of his contract, it wasn't paid out like you suggest. And in regard to the footy in the 50's and 60's, are you saying that 3 of the first 4 immortals need to have an asterisk next to their name?

[Paddo Colt 61]

Not at all re the asterix but are you saying that the modern game and its athleticism is comparable to that of the 30s when it was just 25 years old in NSW and was devoid of the huge following that it enjoys these days? The pub posters appeared in the 40s when the sport became, among others, a glib symbol of manly pursuit like beer drinking and its audience was pretty much confined to those circles.
The Immortals originated as a commercial promotional attempt to give the game instant tradition and a culture with an increased TV audience front of mind. There is little objectivity to it, how can there be? But like so much other myth propagated by our MSM, many are suckered in by it. "He's an immortal, end of story!" like the Libs are the best managers of the economy also courtesy of some drunk at News Ltd.

[Headless Chook]

Not at all re the asterix but are you saying that the modern game and its athleticism is comparable to that of the 30s when it was just 25 years old in NSW and was devoid of the huge following that it enjoys these days? The pub posters appeared in the 40s when the sport became, among others, a glib symbol of manly pursuit like beer drinking and its audience was pretty much confined to those circles.
The Immortals originated as a commercial promotional attempt to give the game instant tradition and a culture with an increased TV audience front of mind. There is little objectivity to it, how can there be? But like so much other myth propagated by our MSM, many are suckered in by it. "He's an immortal, end of story!" like the Libs are the best managers of the economy also courtesy of some drunk at News Ltd.

That's an entirely different argument and there is only one answer to it. Our discussion has been about the relevance of records created back in the early days of the game. If Brown could score so many points training rarely and with little or no coaching, who's to say what he might have achieved in todays professional game. As we both know, the game today would be unrecognisable to somebody from the 30's so it's pretty much a moot point, but the simple fact remains that despite todays professionalism his pointscoring records have stood the test of time

[Paddo Colt 61]

Sorry but they've "stood the test of time" because the defences are incomparably better nowadays and the player pool bigger, simple. It's not an "entirely different argument". You're saying that his record is an absolute (like the speed of light) which, objectively, makes him the greatest Tricolour Centre ever. I'm just not so convinced about that. A legend? Sure, the greatest? Not so certain given the variables involved. Sure, the record is there but it's pretty much meaningless out of a context.

With regard to the future, I think that the Club should have made a serious play for Matt Burton who has been spectacular at Centre. His recruitment would have settled the Smith pipedream or, alternatively, provided a solid successor to Keary. Anyway, didn't happen......if me aunty...

[Ivan Benko]

I think Crusher Cleal is missing from that list

[Mickie Lane]

I think Crusher Cleal is missing from that list

Justin Hodges & Terry Hill as well.

[roosterproud]

I sat with Joey for a few hours today. What a nice polite young man. So humble. He is healing very well and in a good place. I hit him up anout 2023 and he is undecided.