Minus Western propaganda what's the real story on the Ukraine?

[ism22]

Dear Paddo Colt 61,

You are basic.

Sincerely,

Jizz22

[Random Rooster]

No, I mean the young and impressionable. Are you seriously suggesting that truth can be found in Business Insider?

In the early days of the cold war (early 50s), the US flooded East Germany with propaganda images of US modernity - modern kitchens and the like. The message being that life was so much better in the West. Of course that was a lie as far as the great majority of people in the US were concerned - those who would, today, earn the $7 minimum wage and even those well above.
Consumer goods galore - the enticement of American soft power - more than any other, the youth demographic is and always has been in thrall to it.

In California some years ago I remarked that I had, to a degree, vicariously grown up in the US and that shows like Leave it to Beaver had presented an image of boundless middle class comfort for all and I was both fascinated and envious given the 3 rooms in which my family lived. My host, referring to the Watts riots then in progress, suggested that a lot of Americans had also believed what they saw in those apple pie shows, wanted part of the fantasy and were taking matters into their own hands.

Ok let me get my head around this.

You're saying all of these political opponents of Putin that met with a unfortunate death was just a co-incidence or propaganda from the west? Alexei Navalny didn't get poisoned by a bad in flight meal!


You're saying the USA bombarded East Germany with propaganda about a better life in the west...which was actually a lie? The German Democratic Republic built the Berlin Wall to keep its population from fleeing East Berlin for West Berlin.....believe me if life was so great in the east they wouldn't build a wall to keep them in! They also wouldn't shoot to kill east Germans trying to get over the wall to the west. You also may wanted to check out the economic differences between the east and west under the occupation years.



I think i get what your saying re the USA. Yes it has always been full of racism and has had division within, and shows like Leave it to Beaver and My Three Sons weren't a true representation of what life was like for many....although i doubt people took " matters into their own hands" because they wanted the fantasy life of those shows. They were just rebelling against racism and unfair standards of living conditions. These days the minorities in the USA aren't so minor and the majority are feeling threatened....and they are using propaganda on their own people. Yes like you i'm no fan of the USA. I don't take for granted that my kids are growing up in a country that is (albeit slowly) moving away from racism and having respect for all-even Souths supporters (sometimes!)

[mightyrooster]

Putin has two thirds majority support in Russia. Support being especially strong among older demographics. His weakest support is the younger cohort but since when have they been right about much? It's the demographic that the West plays to - hormones on the move big time, naive, shopping top priority, beauty, celebrity, social media and not a lot between the ears in most cases.

People, please abandon the idea that Putin is a crazed misfit and that his own people might eradicate him. He is an elected leader who is seen, widely in Russia, as something of a saviour. At what point, if ever, do you concede that the other side might be hypocritical and disingenuous. The ideal of the US might be an homogenous corporate world in which there is no challenge to US ideological hegemony. It certainly looks like that .

Please MR, China is in the same boat as Russia. Why is China a worry? What, they're going to do the bidding of their antagonist? India is the West's big worry - included in the revised anti Chinese QUAD group headed up by the US of course, the Indian nation is often seen to be the great counterweight to China. Those who seek to diminish the CCP's astonishing achievements often suggest that India will soon overtake China economically and Capitalism will emerge, once again, unchallenged. No sign of that yet - an ideological pipe dream.

Random. A "ludicrous statement"? NATO (the US) invaded Serbia less than 20 years ago without UN agreement. When the Soviet Union was broken up, NATO's raison d'etre went with it. Remarkable that people are blind to what has happened over the last two decades and can still get into a pro western lather whenever called on to do so by government and media. Why is there no frothing over Israel's annexation of Gaza? No frothing over British protection of Northern Ireland, no frothing over Iraq?

To quote you Paddo, you seem to have a very selective view of China. Chinese News Service like.

[Random Rooster]

To quote you Paddo, you seem to have a very selective view of China. Chinese News Service like.

You got to be fair to Paddo- everyone is entitled to their view. He isn't alone....Donald trump and Tucker Carlson are also admirers of Putin

[mightyrooster]

You got to be fair to Paddo- everyone is entitled to their view. He isn't alone....Donald trump and Tucker Carlson are also admirers of Putin

Just having a bit of fun with him as he told me my views were very selective. Or maybe there’s a bit of irony in your comment too!

[Random Rooster]

Just having a bit of fun with him as he told me my views were very selective. Or maybe there’s a bit of irony in your comment too!

Im just having a bit of fun too....even if it is factual!!

[mightyrooster]

Im just having a bit of fun too....even if it is factual!!

Lol..exactly!!

[Paddo Colt 61]

Please let's go back to first principles on this. My contention is that there is another side to this conflict that we have heard almost nothing about in our MSM. All we get is the Russian boogie man stuff and yet Russia has a case.

Why don't we hear that case ? Partly because we don't want to hear it to think too much might bring a storm of cognitive dissonance upon us and we've already made up our minds that the US is a force for good - of course we have, we've been indoctrinated since infancy
Even when, as has been discussed here, we see the hypocrisy of the US which long ago bypassed the UN when it suited them and invaded countries one after the other, we remain disinclined to be skeptical of its motives - everybody else thinks my way, I read it in the paper, the US saved us etc etc. The main reason however is that we invest quite a bit of ego in personal opinions, they are part of our identity and not easily shaken.
On ABC Life Matters program this morning (you can listen on the RN site) I heard, for the very first time, a discussion about the war's coverage compared to previous US instigated invasions - first they remarked that those invasions got nowhere near the same emotional coverage. It was then pointed out that Russia had valid concerns re the activities of Ukrainian ultra Nationalists in the Russian majority regions. For the first time, I heard an honest account of the Azov Battalion's murderous mission. One of the contributors was Peter Greste the guy whom we sprung from Egypt and who has lately ratted on Julian Assange arguing that Assange is not a journalist and, therefore, is fair game for the US to prosecute. He's not, therefore, a misguided lefty.

[Johnny Brass]

The one thing that has been obvious over the last year is that you can't force democracy on anyone and it's been highlighted by both Afghanistan and Ukraine and that it must come from within.
Afghanistan was left all the military equipment and toys by the yanks and they rolled over to a ragtag Taliban mob in days with their leader doing the Harold with a plane load of cash.
Ukraine on the other hand have been faced with a military super power and they are fighting to the death with anything they can lay their hands on.
Putin has made a terrible mistake and fears like most dictators that it doesn't usually end well for his kind, what he has done is indefensible from a humanitarian point of view.

[Random Rooster]

Please let's go back to first principles on this. My contention is that there is another side to this conflict that we have heard almost nothing about in our MSM. All we get is the Russian boogie man stuff and yet Russia has a case.

You really have been watching Tucker Carlson! This has been his angle for the last 2 weeks

Let me ask you this, how do you see this working out? Will Putin get out of it what he wants?

[Paddo Colt 61]

My guess is that Tucker (or Fox more accurately) is seeking to mollify the masses after having stirred the collective emotions in the first place. Diplomacy is now the only option because Russia has played the big ace and as a result the US is hamstrung for the first time in many decades. Fox is trying to prepare Americans for a "defeat" by at last discussing the other side case and inferring that Ukraine is partly to blame (I don't know I don't waste my time on Murdoch but that's what it looks like - there has to be a settlement albeit grudging on the part of the US.

It can't involve Nato because Ukraine is not a member, it can't fake an excuse like WMD or the Gulf of Tonkin in "65 because it doesn't want to invoke NATO for fear of nuclear escalation. Supplying too many weapons or applying a no fly zone is out for the same reason - Russia would rightly consider that as the "interference" that it has warned about.

The US, in crafting its ideal world has had 3 major military defeats - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and is in no mood for another.

Look back to the Cuban Missile crisis touted at the time as a US win. The Russian missiles in Cuba horrified the US - no thought to the US missile bases circling the Soviets of course. We, the US, are the goodies after all who've spent most of our national existence at war - saving others with no regard for our own national self interests. Yeah right! The result was that the Soviets having given the US a dose of its own medicine (as the 9/11 "terrorists" later did) withdrew from Cuba but only when Kennedy withdrew missiles bases from Turkey - we never heard about that at the time, strange as it might seem.

Unqualified support globally for a fading hegemon puts us on the wrong side of History. We need to look to our security within Asia not from Asia as Paul Keating advises.

And Brassy, haven't you read anything that's gone before here? Fighting to the "death"? I'd like to know the truth of that. Things would be much like they would be here if similar circumstances prevailed. Who would honestly say that they'd grab a Molotov Cocktail or the old man's hunting rifle? They're very wisely pretty much leaving from what I see after taking no interest (as sheeple don't) in the type of people who get elected and the forces at play behind them. Taking no interest either in the ousting of an elected government and the detention of the opposition. No interest either in whether joining NATO was a wise ambition. No interest either in the role of the US and ultra nationalist criminals in their nations's affairs.

Afghanistan was a lost cause from the get go. The Taliban was not unpopular in the tribal regions of the country and our murderous VC's tours of duty have made that obvious to anyone who might care to think. We've let loose a disaster like him on innocent people but let's not confuse ourselves because the people of Ukraine need to be our main concern.

[Random Rooster]

My guess is that Tucker (or Fox more accurately) is seeking to mollify the masses after having stirred the collective emotions in the first place. Diplomacy is now the only option because Russia has played the big ace and as a result the US is hamstrung for the first time in many decades. Fox is trying to prepare Americans for a "defeat" by at last discussing the other side case and inferring that Ukraine is partly to blame (I don't know I don't waste my time on Murdoch but that's what it looks like - there has to be a settlement albeit grudging on the part of the US.

So you're saying that because the USA is "hamstrung", Russia will be in a position of strength in diplomatic talks? Thus far talks between Russia and Ukraine has revealed that Ukraine is prepared to negotiate assurances about not joining NATO, however Russia just wants a full surrender. In the interim we have a couple of million plus refugees & the civilian casualties are mounting up.

Fox news is always interesting. They were blasting Biden for buying oil from Russia.....then when the US said they weren't going to buy any they blasted Biden for a increase in petrol prices. Now they are blasting him for not going in to help the Ukrainians with air defence......and you know if that changes Fox News will blast him for being a war monger and starting WW3! Old Rupert really has created the The Divided States of America

I got no idea how this all ends- its a very sad situation

[zac]

can't agree with you on this one, paddo. only read the first post, but if scotland and wales are like ukraine how would you feel about england invading either?
i'm hoping there's a palace coup and putin gets the boot.

[mightyrooster]

My guess is that Tucker (or Fox more accurately) is seeking to mollify the masses after having stirred the collective emotions in the first place. Diplomacy is now the only option because Russia has played the big ace and as a result the US is hamstrung for the first time in many decades. Fox is trying to prepare Americans for a "defeat" by at last discussing the other side case and inferring that Ukraine is partly to blame (I don't know I don't waste my time on Murdoch but that's what it looks like - there has to be a settlement albeit grudging on the part of the US.

It can't involve Nato because Ukraine is not a member, it can't fake an excuse like WMD or the Gulf of Tonkin in "65 because it doesn't want to invoke NATO for fear of nuclear escalation. Supplying too many weapons or applying a no fly zone is out for the same reason - Russia would rightly consider that as the "interference" that it has warned about.

The US, in crafting its ideal world has had 3 major military defeats - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and is in no mood for another.

Look back to the Cuban Missile crisis touted at the time as a US win. The Russian missiles in Cuba horrified the US - no thought to the US missile bases circling the Soviets of course. We, the US, are the goodies after all who've spent most of our national existence at war - saving others with no regard for our own national self interests. Yeah right! The result was that the Soviets having given the US a dose of its own medicine (as the 9/11 "terrorists" later did) withdrew from Cuba but only when Kennedy withdrew missiles bases from Turkey - we never heard about that at the time, strange as it might seem.

Unqualified support globally for a fading hegemon puts us on the wrong side of History. We need to look to our security within Asia not from Asia as Paul Keating advises.

And Brassy, haven't you read anything that's gone before here? Fighting to the "death"? I'd like to know the truth of that. Things would be much like they would be here if similar circumstances prevailed. Who would honestly say that they'd grab a Molotov Cocktail or the old man's hunting rifle? They're very wisely pretty much leaving from what I see after taking no interest (as sheeple don't) in the type of people who get elected and the forces at play behind them. Taking no interest either in the ousting of an elected government and the detention of the opposition. No interest either in whether joining NATO was a wise ambition. No interest either in the role of the US and ultra nationalist criminals in their nations's affairs.

Afghanistan was a lost cause from the get go. The Taliban was not unpopular in the tribal regions of the country and our murderous VC's tours of duty have made that obvious to anyone who might care to think. We've let loose a disaster like him on innocent people but let's not confuse ourselves because the people of Ukraine need to be our main concern.

I think most of us get your point about the lopsided media reporting by now Paddo. Some of us even agree with you that there’s a stark and laughable difference between the reporting of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the US invasion of, say Iraq. But I still don’t get your ultimate aim here. So because America got away with lying about WMD to justify their invasion (along with many others) you think Putin should be allowed to as well? Two wrongs don’t make a right?

[mightyrooster]

So you're saying that because the USA is "hamstrung", Russia will be in a position of strength in diplomatic talks? Thus far talks between Russia and Ukraine has revealed that Ukraine is prepared to negotiate assurances about not joining NATO, however Russia just wants a full surrender. In the interim we have a couple of million plus refugees & the civilian casualties are mounting up.

Fox news is always interesting. They were blasting Biden for buying oil from Russia.....then when the US said they weren't going to buy any they blasted Biden for a increase in petrol prices. Now they are blasting him for not going in to help the Ukrainians with air defence......and you know if that changes Fox News will blast him for being a war monger and starting WW3! Old Rupert really has created the The Divided States of America

I got no idea how this all ends- its a very sad situation

Yeah politics. Let’s just use what’s happening in Ukraine to score political points against our real enemy - you know our political opponents in Congress. It’s a joke.